These Hoes Ain't Loyal Milennials at Work

The lounge is now open. That's right folks, The Bail Yourself Out Happy Hour Podcast is back with its dynamic host -  creator, entrepreneur, and visionary of the pod, Kandice Whitaker, who this week welcomes a prolific co-host with a thirty-year career in academia,  former high school teacher, current academic professor and assistant provost Roz Whitaker.

This week Kandice and Roz examine an employee's responsibility to an employer. Does longevity still matter? In this fluctuating work landscape, is it the responsibility of either the employer or the employee, or has modern employment devolved into a 100% transactional agreement? The hosts explore the everchanging work landscape and attempt to understand the next step for future generations. The hosts explore the benefits of attending an HBCU (historically black college and university)  as an undergrad and then a PWI (predominately white institution) at the graduate level. Turning the two unique experiences into one powerhouse preparation for any employer or fluctuating job marrket. 

 Millennials and even Generation Z have been labeled "job hoppers" because of their frequent movement between employers. Is the label justified or a by-product of the current employment landscape? Kandice and Roz have some thoughts on the matter. Roz and Kandice also examine loyalty in the workplace. Does it have a place in this post-pandemic job market? Did loyalty ever have a place in the employee-employer dynamic? The different generations of Kandice and Roz are evident as the hosts have varying degrees of belief on the subject matter. And finally, we all use it, but does the pronoun "they" suffice? Can we improve pronoun usage in formal settings to ensure the inclusivity of everyone? Roz and Kandice have a frank conversation and seek answers that could aid us all in our journey to our better selves. 

Reference
Episode 5 - These Hoes Ain't Loyal  Article

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Transcript

Speaker: 0:00

Welcome to the Bail yourself out Happy Hour Podcast where each week we'll help you navigate the corporate jungle. Here's your host Kandice Whitaker

Kandice Whitaker: 0:10

Nope it's happy hour. I'm your coworker Kandice with the K pull up a chair of your favorite drink for the bail yourself out Happy Hour is about to start now. Welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour lounge friends. Listen, are you a boomer a Gen X and Millennial a Gen Y? Do you think that affects your personality in any way the generation that you were born in? I do? I definitely do. I think there are certain personality types that can be attributed to when you were born. Personally, I'm in an interesting place because I'm like right on the cusp of being a Gen X or millennial depending on the chart that you're viewing. And for years and years. Right before today's conversation. I was always hardcore. I am Team Gen X. I definitely thought I was more Gen X based on you know how I grew up. But my conversation with today's guests made me realize that I have some very distinct millennial traits. And you know what, those are some of my best parts. And recently, there was a Gallup poll that describes Millennials as job hoppers. And personally, I took offense to that I was really frustrated because I felt like that conversation. It's always so one sided. It's always from corporates perspective that millennials are job hoppers. And it seems really propaganda ish. And I'm going to tell you why. Because we don't talk about the whole thing. We only talk about how people move from job to job nowadays, we don't talk about how wages have been stagnant since the 70s, or benefits are steadily on the decline. Health insurance premiums are super expensive. Boomers, they're not retiring. They're staying in their jobs. And guess what, usually they have the good jobs, the high paying ones, the ones with the flexibility, you know, all this stuff that we want. So if we're going to have the conversation, let's have the real full conversation. I advise people all the time, the quickest way to get a raise and promotion is to get a new job. So let's be fair in the conversation, are millennials job hopping? Are they providing for their family, okay, get your best corporate home on use these folks for what they're good for and move on. So anyway, that's what we're going to talk about what our CO hosts of the day she is a tremendous scholar, but most of all, she's a really good cool person professionally. She's a professor and an assistant provost so she has a lot to bring to the table and she's going to take us to school y'all Roz Whitaker-Hecht right after the break is going to be sliding right into the happy hour lounge keep where you got it

Pierce Taylor: 2:41

Welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast. The bail acronym is used to outline the steps to implementing resilience in your life B believe you can win A accept change as part of the journey I inventory strengths and L learn from what's happened together will impact the bail framework in action. Now back to the show.

Kandice Whitaker: 2:58

Hey, hey. Hey, what's up? Happy Hour fam. I am in the lounge today with one of my favorite guests so far. This is my cousin Roz Whitaker-Hecht. Roz What do you want the world to know about you I'm gonna let you introduce yourself. So

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 3:20

Hello, and thank you so much for having me on your show and hello to all of your listeners out there and your fans and just let you know a little bit about me. I'm a southern girl so born and bred in Virginia, but for some odd reason I'm currently living in the other V state Vermont. Yes, I know. I've heard that Make that paper boo.

Kandice Whitaker: 3:42

that's why comeon get some of that good northern money ain't nobody's crazy. We know why you went to the V state or at least I do.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 3:53

Right? So you know the sun is out today which is miraculous and is you know, only 50 degrees, which means that everybody's out in their shorts and sandals right now, but that's okay. Sunday

Kandice Whitaker: 4:05

in your bank account. Booboo, New York. I mean, that's the New England vibe. It's not New York. I'm sorry, New York. I apologize. As long as it's over 50 degrees in New England, y'all. I lived there for 15 years flip flops, shorts, sweatshirts, right. That's the vibe.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 4:21

Oh, yes. And, you know, I grew up in Virginia, and, and had a pretty comfortable life, went off to school went to the first Hu some always say, you know, how they, you know, had a great experience there. We can talk a little bit more about my HBCU experience a little bit later. But after Howard, I'm guarded in the school system, believe it or not, even though I had a communication degree, but was able to sort of segue into higher education after that and I have been in higher education ever since I've done some stints at Old Dominion University in Norfolk and Hampton University in Hampton, Virginia, Penn State University and currently at a small private institution in Burlington, Vermont. I have a lovely family have a husband of 33 years, I just treated him to a late Christmas present, which was deceased his favorite group, snarky puppy and concert so we just saw that snarky puppy,

Kandice Whitaker: 5:38

chatty, shout out to snarky puppy y'all

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 5:41

never seen them in person, you know, always YouTube video. So this time, we got to see them in person had a great time. I had a great time. And I have a lovely daughter and adult. And she's good. She's all good. And it's just been a blast here,

Kandice Whitaker: 5:57

literally and figuratively. And we are not just referring to the blizzards. So you really briefly mentioned in your intro your life at Howard. And like that is a big thing here. Because what we like to talk about is careers and businesses and all things that affect the life of our people to seasoned Diaspora people of color. So how did your time at Howard influence your life? Now? You are not our first Howard guest, just so you know, this season? Right? But I want to hear your perspective. Sure, sure. So

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 6:31

you know, it's funny, because in my day, when you were growing up black in the south, there were certain achievements that marked you as accomplished, right. And one of those was moving out of what would be considered now an impoverished community, or the hood did not

Kandice Whitaker: 6:54

just say impoverished.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 6:59

impoverished,

Kandice Whitaker: 7:00

I mean, I know what that mean, and everything, but you don't hear that in the sentence normally, wow. That makes a sting.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 7:09

power and two working parents. And they made a decision that they wanted a better life for themselves. And for me, I'm an only child by the way,

Kandice Whitaker: 7:18

I got it right the first time just like me, that's what we tell people forget this only child crap. They got it right. The first time. They said like, let's quit. While we're ahead. We're done.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 7:28

Right. That's it. So you know, we moved to another city and moved into what would be considered a middle class neighborhood. But what was interesting about that is that it was an all black middle class neighborhood. And it was just one of those things where I was surrounded by blue collar, as well as professional Lee educated neighbors. So you had teachers in my neighborhood, you had nurses in my neighborhood, you had all kinds of folks in our neighborhood who were trying to do better for themselves. However, one of the things that happened to was that it made me realize that there were expectations of me by my parents, such as going to college and my father did not go to college. He did graduate from high school, my mother course, was more educated than my father, she had gotten a master's degree at some point in my, I think, elementary school time. And so by her, there was an expectation that you're going to go to college, while many other members of my families once they graduated from high school, they would find a job and start a family. And so it's sort of ostracized me a little bit because I was one of the few going off to college. And back in my day, Howard was the Mecca. And so I just applied to Howard and was fortunate enough to be accepted and what that experience was for me was life changing. It was transformative.

Kandice Whitaker: 9:11

Oh my god. Wait, I wait, wait, wait. My other guest literally said the same thing. Like y'all talk to each other life changing transformative, verbatim. It's true.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 9:27

It's so true. Yes. And I went to public school, and I did not know the richness of my ancestors. I did not know the contributions that my ancestors made to making America I did not know the BRI of being a person of African descent. I just had no concept of that growing until I went to Howard. I remember needing other Black students from Arkansas and I said, Are you serious? They're black people in Arkansas now that I probably

Kandice Whitaker: 10:06

would have said that in 1999, I probably would have said that to forreal.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 10:11

meeting people who had so many bad experiences and people who were just so interesting to me, because I've never met people, black people like them in my little community, right? So it was just so transformative, because I literally became a new person as a result of my experiences at house. So yeah,

Kandice Whitaker: 10:35

what was the main difference? Like you learned a lot about being black in the culture, and you learned a lot of other ways of being in the world from different people is what it sounds like you said, but like, what was it that made you say, was it one thing? Or was it a combination? Like, I'm just curious. So

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 10:53

I think the realizations was that we are not monolithic as a people that we are a range of humans in this world. Even though we may have a common identity as a black person, what I found to be just an experience I would have never had at any other institution was Howard was a magnet, and still is a magnet for excellence. It's just one of the most special places ever. And I will it took me a while to appreciate that because at the time I was a student, I just felt like why am I standing in all these long lines just to register for lunch or whatever these people need to get it together. But it after a while, I did understand that there, there was no other no other experience that I could have had to make me feel as proud as I am of being black. So I'm sorry. Because even though I had a close knit family, I did not realize how oppressed our communities can make us be without even our realization of it. Oh, conditioning? Absolutely. Absolutely. And is in his unconscious to you. That's that is what is so frustrating is that Sidious it says this everywhere, yours not understanding or realizing how pervasive this oppression was. And it and once I went to Howard go on it, my level of consciousness became so acute to that level of oppression, that it transformed me into saying, You know what, I'm not going to be conditioned any longer, I'm going to break free from this oppression the best way I can and the best way I can break free from this oppression is to be educated about

Kandice Whitaker: 13:01

you talking, right? Right. I feel like I need to have some like preacher music behind like, like for real? And and it's until you really have those other experiences that you can look back and see the cell wall in the prison bar.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 13:19

Right? It's sad.

Kandice Whitaker: 13:21

Oh, my gosh. So I'm going to ask you the age old question that we asked everybody who comes and visits the happy hour lounge, because, you know, this is how we talk. So you know, HBCU PWI, if given a choice, what is your recommendation as a person who's been on both sides of the fence, not only as a student, but also as a professor, right?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 13:46

You know, that's an age old question, and you're gonna get as many different answers as there are people. However, I would recommend both. And the reason why I say that is because I think an HBCU undergrad provides you a really solid foundation to establish who you are as a person and then I think a segue into a PWI, you're you're already established in terms of who you are as a person. And as a black person, you are walking into a situation where you cannot be questioned your existence cannot be questioned because you have that foundation. Right there though. Yeah.

Kandice Whitaker: 14:32

I felt that in my shanana.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 14:34

Because it is I think if you don't have that foundation as to your value, and your worth as a person before you step into what I would call an unfamiliar environment, you don't necessarily have the fortitude, the resistance, the confidence and the courage to stake your claim in that environment.

Kandice Whitaker: 14:59

So are you saying that I, and I love your points, I think that's great. So

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 15:03

for me, I would recommend HBCU undergrad, get that foundation, establish who you are, understand your value and your worth, appreciate it and take it with you and to maybe graduate level education environment or into the workplace.

Kandice Whitaker: 15:20

Here's how I feel about it, right? I love the idea of historically black college or university. And sometimes I really wish that I had pursued that. And my undergrad education. But having grown up in New York, the idea of going to HBCU was far right, there was none where I could be like less than a four or five hour drive from home. And you know, in life before the internet, that was a very scary proposition. Now, it's a little bit easier, actually, it's a lot easier. You know, we're doing video calls like the Jetsons and whatnot. So I mean, we are and that we have these little handheld devices that didn't exist when I was in college. So it makes things a lot different. But I just want to throw in I in our virtual Happy Hour community. The party never stops follow Kandice with a K Whitaker on social media, Facebook, think the thing that you said that was most poignant, was Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and Tiktok. Now back to the show. All right, we are back y'all. Welcome back to the happy hour whatever you do, make sure you're finding yourself wherever lounge. I have our co host today and our guest Roz Whitaker-Hecht, she was an associate provost and professor, you go, whether that be working on a military or somebody's we've been doing a lot of talking about a lot of different College, make sure you know who you are, and you have your core stuff, y'all. She answered our question our age old question about HBCU versus PWI. And we know a whole lot more about her values and have established what's important to you. than we did before. I mean, shoot, I didn't even know half the stuff that I learned, like I learned stuff today, too. So I Absolutely. All right. So we are doing great on time. So I'm want to talk about the article that I mentioned a little bit earlier, there was a Gallup poll, which I thought was super, going to put a paperclip in it right here and we're going to super interesting. And the Gallup poll was talking about millennials, which is this generation, you know, like 1980 take a break and we'll be back. to one depending on the

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 17:25

Thanks, Annie 596 Yep, I'm not

Kandice Whitaker: 17:28

a millennial, but that's a whole different conversation. No. But anyway, the generation after me them they job hop, I'm always taken aback by the lack of awareness that so many people in corporate America have and the media to continually put out this is propaganda to me because to me, I'm gonna tell you why I think is propaganda. Because the conversation is not that corporate over the last 20 years has continually cut benefits stagnated wages, the conversation is Millennials are job hunting or job hopping. Well, the reason they're job hopping is because sometimes a lot of times that's the only way to get a raise a promotion. Go. Right. What are you talking about? We have all these boomers who are mean who don't ever retire. Damn boomers ever retire, you know? Yeah, yeah, we can condition your there a seven o'clock in the morning, and I look down at anybody that wants to work from home or have any kind of work life balance, damn boomers. I'm here at eight o'clock with my coffee sitting at my desk. We're not doing that. Right, because guess what, we ain't getting a pension and a gold watch. And we couldn't pay our way through college working at McDonald's over the summer. So we're over it mainly because we're tired and we've been tired.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 19:05

Right? And there's no shame in that game. Not at all. Understand it.

Kandice Whitaker: 19:10

Getcho corporate Hoe on. That's right. There is no reason to be loyal for what?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 19:20

That's right. So you know, you make some excellent points. And prior to the millennials, you know, you had the Gen Xers prior to the Gen Xers you had the baby boomers, and believe it or not, prior to the baby boomers, you had the silent generation, and all of those generations prior to the millennials. were conditioned to view the workplace as a source of security for your life. Right. I have so much as a opportunity to will advance your career, not so much as an opportunity to build the company up. But more or less, to say, I have a job for life

Kandice Whitaker: 20:16

That's not even true Roz.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 20:19

I'm just saying the generations before that when I

Kandice Whitaker: 20:23

get that, like, Is this why during the Depression when people were getting laid off, they was jumping out of windows and shit. That's why

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 20:30

well, when I put there that's a particular subset of people. Okay. The people I'm talking about are folks who did not have the resources or the wherewithal to feel as though it was necessary to jump out of a window because they lost money because they didn't really have that much money saved up. Okay. They had already spent their money. Right. paycheck to paycheck. No, there was no savings.

Kandice Whitaker: 21:07

We used to be a broke Yeah, it's good. We know how to do this.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 21:11

That's right. I am being accustomed to being broke. You know, we could deal manages, yes, we could deal with it. Right. It was an everyday occurrence, everyday experience. Right. But going back to the to the millennials, you know, that sense of loyalty is not there, be calm, because, over time, the security and the safety that previous generations benefited from by their companies have been eroded over time, you mentioned the lack of pensions, and you know, health insurance premiums are through the roof. Outrageous, right? Absolutely. And, you know, the parks and all of that have just been eroded away. And so, I was I am currently reading a book called The culture code by Daniel Coyle. And the book is very interesting, because it kind of talks about performance, you know, workplace performance. And so one of the interesting parts of the chapter talks about employee loyalty, and does that even exist anymore, and they exodus of employees now, right, who the Gallup Poll called or described as job hopping, and one of the companies, it was a Indian company call center, and it was losing 50 to 60% of his employees every year, just having to start all over again, with almost half of a new workforce. And so they reached out to these researchers that look at Job loyalty. And they did this really interesting experiment. So among a cohort of new hires, the researchers had the company divide the new hires up into two groups. So group one, they did the standard training, onboarding, they spent an additional hour with the trainees talking about the company, then they took the other group did the same as group one, but they did something a little bit different with the second group. And then the second group, instead of using that additional hour to talk about the company, they took the additional hours to talk about the employees, the new employee, asking them questions like know what contributions, what strengths, what skills do you feel you have, that you can contribute to the growth of this organization. And so the questions were more centered around the new employees versus around the company. And then in the first group, at the end of that session, they gave me all the new employees a t shirt with a company name on it. The second group, they did something a little different. They gave each new employee a company shirt with the company logo on it, and their own name, their own name on the shirt. So about after seven months, the researchers came back around, just to kind of see, okay, what's the yield here? 270% increase in the second group, still working with the company versus group one. And so what was the differentiating factor was something called belonging cues. So I'm going to tell you that there are three belonging cues right and And so what happens is with belonging to a prompt three basic questions one is, are we connected to? Do we share a future? And three? Are we safe? So in the experiment is now obvious that group two felt those stronger sense of connection to the company. Why? Because in the training session, they were asked about themselves, right, and the contributions, and that created a connection between those new employees and the company, they also felt a stronger sense of sharing a future with the company, because of that question that they were asked, How do you feel you can be of value to this company, and then that third prompt, they felt a stronger sense of safety with the company, because if they're being asked how they can be a contributor to the growth and the health and the wealth of the company, then there's a certain sense of safety in that question, because the company is sort of being vulnerable, and saying, We really need you to be contributors to our existence, and that conveys a certain level of safety for the employee, because if the company is depending on me to survive, then I feel somewhat safe here, you know, this was in India, yes, as opposed to throw away. Now, of course, there could be cultural nuances. But I found the experiment to be worth considering, for Western companies to consider and companies to consider in America. I like the concept.

Kandice Whitaker: 26:52

And I think as communal beings, I know that it is important for anyone to feel as though they're a part of a community, right? community and being belonging that is quintessential to the human experience. And I've actually been in companies that have tried that, that have tried to make that communal experience, not exactly what you said. But I've been in companies that have made us in small groups, and tell us a little about yourself, and I've even experienced, how can you contribute. But I think the elephant in the room is that American corporate culture is inherently unsafe. And any thinking person knows that.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 27:36

And you say that because well,

Kandice Whitaker: 27:38

at will employment period, period, at will employment, there is not one position, and I've been a consultant, I've been a contractor, every single employment contract that you sign your little name on. And by the way, you don't have a job unless you have contract with your name and a start date on it that might help somebody just so you know, they all have a clause that is at will employment. That means I don't like the way you blew your nose today. Today's your last day. I have a perfect example that actually came up in my life today. So I have a friend, a former colleague, sweet young lady, who was working at a toxic environment, period. And you would think, I wouldn't think but one would think that it would be reasonable to say to your employer, you know, I'm not happy here. I'm going to start looking. You know what I told today's show last days, this girl, what you're talking about, say they don't say? Well, what

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 28:39

that what that conveys to me is that that company did not value the opportunity to assess what is wrong in that environment. And if and if a company is not willing to do that, do you really want to be there? But that's the

Kandice Whitaker: 29:00

whole problem. Roz? You're right. Most of them don't, they don't care anything about you. And unfortunately, you know, that's just, I'm not going to say all of them, because I have been very fortunate along my journey to have some amazing bosses and some amazing companies that I've worked for. But the vast majority, baby, if you die tomorrow, your job is posted, they might send you a family edible arrangement. So live your life accordingly. And

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 29:31

you know, the reality is, and I've had these conversations with my direct reports, especially when it comes to doing performance reviews, which we all love, dearly. The way I approach that conversation is to remind the person that they do not own the position that they occupy. The company owns the position that they occupy. That's it and that's all And the company has the latitude and the wherewithal to decide what it wants to do with that position and who they want to occupy that position. And what unfortunately happens sometimes is that, you know, it could be a spectrum of some people, particularly of these older generations, you know, we talk about Gen X and baby boomers who tie up their positions into their own personal identities as opposed to incorrectly, right, as opposed to, you know, the millennials or the Gen Xers. And even now we have what's called Gen alphas. They are born, they were born in 2010. And after Who, who do not have that same perspective, right? We talked about how back in the day, a person who got a job just felt like this is for life, right? I have loyalties to these companies, because the company has treated me a certain way as an employee, employer employee. And so now, with the erosion of that expectation, millennials, Gen Z years, Gen alphas are really looking more for life experiences, versus should have

Kandice Whitaker: 31:28

been doing that the whole time Roz for real,

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 31:31

it, sometimes it's just time that creates these revelations amongst certain generations.

Kandice Whitaker: 31:40

I mean, we are still relatively young as the country and a civilization compared to everybody else, because they've been on that Europe, they have six weeks vacation, they've been had that, yes, if you think you're sick, they have sick time, point blank period, we act like we're gonna, we're not gonna die. We don't have universal health care in some states.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 32:00

And, you know, ironically, I think the pandemic forced many organizations to come to the realization that we have to treat our employees as human beings,

Kandice Whitaker: 32:15

and we have left the ones that didn't die. In the pandemic.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 32:19

that's right. That's right. So in my present situation, there was an expectation you come into work every day, and there was an expectation that you also take work home if you need to. So

Kandice Whitaker: 32:34

Don't make me cuss on this podcast

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 32:38

so I think with the pandemic, it forces companies to reassess those expectations. I know that in my current workplace, we have modified our work life balance policies. So I've had conversations now with my direct reports about what does a work life balance look like? And still be productive? So that pandemic

Kandice Whitaker: 33:07

will mean it for real? Or was you just saying? And so they didn't quit? No,

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 33:12

I was serious. Okay,

Kandice Whitaker: 33:14

but I'm asking the question for real cuz you know how to have these conversations. They don't really mean it. They i How much can we give you so you don't quit?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 33:23

Well, I like a balanced work life situation. So I model that behavior.

Kandice Whitaker: 33:34

half day Fridays. I know that's right. You're making some great points. I'm gonna put a paper clip in it right here. We're gonna take a break. And we'll be right back people. Keep it where you got it.

Pierce Taylor: 33:45

You ready for more? Keep up with Kandice with a K on social media. Now back to the show.

Kandice Whitaker: 33:51

Man. Here we are. We're back here again. Last breaking the happy hour lounge. My guest today is Roz Whitaker-Hecht, our co host for the day we talked about a lot of things they talking about bad about millennials. Again, job hopping. That's lies. I'm not here for it at all. But I do want to talk about since you are a person who has a whole lot of experience in higher education. You talked about it a little bit before the break. But I want you to dive deep into how are millennials different from previous generations. I kind of have my own feelings, which is why I don't identify as a millennial. I'm a trans millennial. Oh, don't identify as a millennial.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 34:35

So you know, I knew that you would be asking me that question. And I had to do a little you know, scholarly research. Nothing too heavy, of course. But I did run across an expert to look looks at different characteristics of these different generational cohorts. Her name is Dr. Alexis Abran. Abramson and so Here's some of the characteristics that she describes specific to millennials, that they are confident that they are curious. Ah, but here's the key that they question authority, they question authority. And so we are looking at now three, well, I would say two cohorts of these generations now and higher ed. But of course, the most recent one, we may have some, you know, Gen Z years, and they were born between 1993 and 2000. But in terms of graduate school, we still would have this cohort of generation. And we're also looking now at what's called Jin alpha. And gin alphas, I want to talk a little bit about because I found this characteristic of gin alphas as really interesting because they're described as the non labelers. I'm not binary, okay, that has previous races.

Kandice Whitaker: 36:14

Even target is on that remember, like a couple of years ago, target said they weren't labeling like girls and boys clothing or anything like that. I mean, like, who cares just by what you want.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 36:25

That's, that's true. So I was really interested in how higher education in the next few years are going to handle a generation of folks who say, they're not binary. And I don't mean just in terms of gender, but just in everything they do non binary, so

Kandice Whitaker: 36:48

that they just didn't say it. I mean, there's nothing new.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 36:53

But the way that our systems are set up, especially our educational systems still have a lot to think about. And they have to really understand that if they want to stay relevant that they have to make these adjustments. So educational institutions are very binary, in most sense of the word binary, from the bathrooms to how we fill out paper, right. So I want to just really think about how my role as an educator can adapt to that. I remember and I'm, so I'm being very vulnerable right now. But I remember about five years ago, I had a student reached out to me before we met in person, and asked that I not call them by the name that was on the roster. And this student wanted to be referred to as they My reaction was, my reaction was very, very narrow mind, very narrow mind. So over the years, I have totally been able to expand my thinking and my understanding of what that means to have a student not be considered in these binary sort of categories. So this next generation, this alpha generation, is really going to test our educational system, and I hope in a good way, well, you

Kandice Whitaker: 38:32

make a great point, Roz, I actually have and thank you for being vulnerable. Let me say that thank you for being vulnerable, because it's in the authenticity of our stories, that we can be better and we can help other people be better. My only feedback is this. And this is not directed to you or to anybody. I just want to put this out there for consideration for the dictionary. Because you know what seasoned diaspora we are wonderful at making up words. We need one here. My daughter, my 12 year old has a friend that identifies as non binary. And girl baby, you just could not tell me this wasn't a little white girl. You couldn't tell me when I pulled up and saw this little chocolate drop was cute. What a little rap. I was literally confused. Like, what? Yes, yeah, this is the person who likes to be referred to as they didn't take issue with the day, right? But and I'm not being funny. I swear to God, she will be talking to me and I was confused. Because she would say they and I thought it was multiple people. I'm like, Who are you talking about? We need a singular non binary pronoun, because they is just confusing. That's all not I appreciate a person not wanting to be not wanting to conform to a single gender. That's cool. That is your right do you think It is just that as a person on the other side who is accustomed to they being multiple people and wanting to be respectful, it gets very confusing and conversation. So seasoned diaspora I know y'all have the talent. Somebody out there, we got to come up with a word one that's not disrespectful, right? For real, we'd be in funny. For real for real. What's a word that we can use to be a singular non binary pronoun, because I don't know how y'all feel about they, but they, it's hard for me. I'm trying to be an ally. I'm trying to be respectful. It's just that when I hear they, I think of multiple people. That's literally how I was taught.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 40:37

Okay, so yes, I've had this conversation numerous times. And this is what I have decided that I'm going to do, I am going to try to not even entertain pronouns at all. You are Candice,

Kandice Whitaker: 40:53

Robin, everybody's Robin Tracy, Stacy, Pat.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 40:58

You're Kandice. So I'm going to refer to candidates as Kandice, we don't really have to have pronoun. If you think about it.

Kandice Whitaker: 41:06

That's fair. Unless you're terrible with names like me.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 41:09

well, that will force you to learn names.

Kandice Whitaker: 41:12

I am so terrible with names like I have to speak to you multiple times. And like you to remember your name.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 41:19

And I'm not trying to compare people to inanimate objects. But if I look at a chair, I'm going to refer to it as a chair, I'm not going to refer to it as an IT. So why cannot do that with people. You're a chair, you're not it, you're a chair.

Kandice Whitaker: 41:35

I mean, that's fair to the only reason I use pronouns. Honestly, if I'm not good on your name, that's my way out. And I actually do do that when I know the person's name, I do say their name more. But you know what, I read something recently, and you know, I don't have the author and whatnot. I'm not prepared like you. But, um, I read something recently, I think it was Brene. Brown, actually, her new book, and she was talking about how people respond better when you actually refer to them by their name anyway,

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 42:05

right. And, and I see this in the same vein as remember when there was the day when we were either Miss or Mrs. And we went to Ms. Because what difference difference

Kandice Whitaker: 42:20

does it make? That's right, it's none of your damn business.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 42:24

That's right. So what difference does it make to know if a human being has a particular biological anatomy? All right,

Kandice Whitaker: 42:36

and like we are forgetting that there is at least 10% of the population that is naturally born intersex, meaning they are both male and female that has happened since the beginning of time. They're not hermaphrodites. Don't say that. That's rude. That's a pejorative. It's intersex that's the right term. But like, I've always wondered, because I'm a nerd and weirdo. And I made my biology teacher in high school mad at me because I kept pressing her like, well, if they naturally exist, why don't we have a category for them, they should have their own pronoun, whatever it is, and they shouldn't be weird. But that was an extension. I went to

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 43:16

a workshop not too long ago. And I don't remember the the organization's name, but the attempt was to educate us about the phenomenon of non binary and this person said they're actually 27 biological gender 27

Kandice Whitaker: 43:37

Oh, like, what's it to us? Stop being so narrow minded, just because it makes you feel comfortable, you're comfortable. Your comfort should not be part of the conversation, quite frankly. What difference does it make as long as they're not sleeping with you? Who cares?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 43:48

Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. That's how I

Kandice Whitaker: 43:52

feel about it like yeah, okay. Are you a cool person? Okay, great. Let's keep it like that. So I actually think that is a redeeming quality of the millennials, though. They question authority a lot more than previous generations, the Gen Xers and the baby boomers have been conditioned to be people pleasers. Mm hmm. Right. And I think it is right to question authority. You know, as a girl who literally, all throughout school, all of my report cards were like, frequently talkative, like that was a thing because I would ask questions, and I was questioning authority, even though I reject the fact that I'm a millennial. But it wasn't seen as appropriate. I distinctly forget school. We'll put that to the side. We'll talk about people who love me. You know, my grandmother, I have a Jamaican grandmother and have an American grandmother. Well, my Jamaican grandmother used to say some things to me, that didn't make sense, because their brand of religion was very spooky and scary, right. So I would always ask questions, because you know, Judge Judy coined it later and said, if it doesn't make sense, it's not True. So some of these things didn't make sense to me. So I would ask questions. And she would then say to me, like, Don't question God. And I'm like, right, so about that God's not here. I'm asking you the questions directed to you. Oh, gosh, that was me. Did you get slapped? But that's who I am. I've always been that person. Right? This is not new. This is not new. I've always been that person, just an example. But like, aside from their questioning authority, and the fact that they're pretty good at computers, what else do you think millennials have as a redeeming factor? That's my opinion. I think the fact that they question authority, almost said we, they question. Authority is great. I like it. It's right. Just because it's something you've been doing doesn't mean it's right. I said, what I said.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 45:53

Yes, I think, and I was just listening to a radio program. It might have been a podcast. And it was an interview with Nikki Giovanni off her Yes.

Kandice Whitaker: 46:06

Shout out to Nikki Giovanni.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 46:07

He just turned 79, I believe blesser. And she just retired as an educator. And she was sort of asked that same question. And not in the same context. I think the question was more of what will you miss about teaching, and her response was, I will miss what I learned from young people. I love that. So she said that she said that. She felt that she learned so much from the intellect and the experiences of young people than she has learned in her 79 years of living. And it was funny because she said that, or Nikki said, Say I'm still training myself conditioning myself. Nikki also said that because of the experiences with the students, Nikki has a tattoo, a huge tattoo that says thug life.

Kandice Whitaker: 47:13

Ode, to Tupac. Yes. I know she has a Tupac thing.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 47:17

Yes, yes.

Kandice Whitaker: 47:20

Miscellaneous facts by Kandice. Yeah.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 47:24

I think what we can learn from Millennials also would be to not be so materialistic in material things, such as houses and cars, but to be more abundant of wonderful experiences with each other. And with this land part. Love that.

Kandice Whitaker: 47:49

I love that.

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 47:50

I'm collecting so much stuff, right?

Kandice Whitaker: 47:52

You know why? Cuz you can take it with you. You don't my father was saying he would say I've never seen a hearse. What do you use u haul attached to the back of it?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 48:02

That's right. That's right. So that's one thing I have learned. I have learned to just stop accumulating things. And another moment of vulnerability when people give me gifts that I don't want. I really gift them.

Kandice Whitaker: 48:19

To me, you just started doing that. Like who?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 48:22

Yes on apologetically I read that. I'll leave it at that. Stop keeping it. Stop keeping,

Kandice Whitaker: 48:31

then or re gifting? Yeah, I've actually gotten to the point where with my family personally, you know, for birthdays, I buy stuff you want it anyway. Or needed. Like you need socks, right? Because we're always going to do something fun. It's about the experience, right? So like for Christmas. My kids have known since they were little like this ain't your birthday. This is Jesus's birthday. So you can fall back on all those expectations. Right. But let's do a family vacation. Let's make some memories. Absolutely. Absolutely. Because we don't need more crap to pack more stuff that I'm gonna throw away next year. For what?

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 49:10

Yes, I'm 100% there. 100%. There, yea.

Kandice Whitaker: 49:15

You Definetly have to consider and it is wonderful to be able to learn and to have a teachable spirit, right? That's important. I think you only grow as an individual. If you are continually learning and open to the many places where you can learn it can be people younger than you people older than you that is in fact what life is about taking what you can and learning what you can

Roz Whitaker-Hecht: 49:38

I think you're absolutely right. And I have made a vow that every month my husband and I are going to have a fabulous experience.

Kandice Whitaker: 49:47

Oh come through experience. Shout out to Teddy shout out to Mr. Hecht. I'm sure that you will be listening and enjoy your experiences. Bo I want to thank you So much Roz Whitaker-Hecht for hanging out with us today in the happy hour lounge you have been a phenomenal co host and we definitely got to have you back again in the happy hour lounge to come luxuriate with us. I love it. Yes. All right, y'all. We out. Wasn't that a great interview? Hold up before you grab your hat and head out. Make your way to facebook.com and join the Kandice with the K Whitaker's Facebook group. That's where you can find our free Happy Hour community, luxuriating enchanting, thank you for listening. And if you enjoyed the show, please leave a review. That's how we keep the lights on. If you're on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram, feel free to shoot me a message and say Hey, girl, hey, I'm Kandice with the K Whitaker and I would love to hear from you. And with that, I love you. And I mean, you know why? Because there are people in the world who hate for no reason I choose to love for no reason. I believe as the great Martin Luther King Jr. said pain is too great a burden to bear and I choose to love peace y'all be great.