BAIL Yourself Out
The new Bail Yourself Out podcast is hosted by Kandice Whitaker, a successful entrepreneur, and specialist in navigating corporate culture. With a fresh new approach to maximizing optimal career moves - the Bail Yourself Out podcast is where the power lunch and the after-work happy hour intersect for dynamic business discussions in a relaxed atmosphere.
BAIL Yourself Out
Lawyer up or Nah: Best Legal Practices for your Start-up
The new Bail Yourself Out podcast is hosted by Kandice Whitaker, a successful entrepreneur, and specialist in navigating corporate culture. With a fresh new approach to maximizing optimal career moves - the Bail Yourself Out podcast is where the power lunch and the after-work happy hour intersect for dynamic business discussions in a relaxed atmosphere.
Follow us @BAILYourselfOut
Season 2 Episode 5 - "Lawyer up or Nah: Best Legal Practices for your Start-up"
Guest Co-Host - Attorney Summer Burnley
Keep up with Kandice Whitaker and the BAIL Yourself Out Community Online
www.linktr.ee/bailyourselfoutpod
© 2023 Alpha and Omega Consulting Inc. All rights reserved.
Hey y'all Hey welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour lounge friends this is your girl Kandice with a K and today on our happy hour couch I got my home girl attorney Summer Burnley and we're going to talk about all things that are important to your business from a legal perspective. Welcome, Summer BurnleyWhat do you want the world to know about you Summer?
Summer Burnley:Ooh, first of all, Kandice, thank you for having me. Um, I would want the world to know that. I'm as real as they come. I'm as humble as they come. And I know my stuff. And I love my lord. Anything else outside of that, you'd have to figure it out for yourself. But that is that's that's me in a nutshell.
Kandice Whitaker:I love that. So let me give you guys a little bit background on how Sommer and I met. So you guys know I have a business. That is what sponsors the podcast, right? Alpha and Omega consulting. And when I started the podcast, I knew I needed to do stuff like trademark and copyright and all this kind of stuff. And I too, I love Jesus, everybody know that. But I drink and I cuss a little judgy Mama, don't judge me. But so I was at a conference that I almost didn't go to, that's a different conversation. I was like, I really need a lawyer. And I really need somebody who gets me in a way. And literally the first person I meet at breakfast Summer, we have not known each other a whole lot of time. But in the short amount of time that we've known each other. And at this point, it's really been like five months to really been that long, would really been five months almost at a day. For people like me, oh, no, they should consult a lawyer or even for people not like me, for people who have businesses, right? Why should you include an attorney in your fold? Like, why is it so important?
Summer Burnley:So a couple of reasons. First of all, you got to be a good steward of your business, okay. And part of being a good steward of your business, and being the CEO, being the boss, you want to be the person that writes the checks, okay? You also got to be the person who makes great decisions. And part of making those great decisions means you need to hire out, especially for the things that you are not an expert in. So as an example, right, let's say, you lay brick, I don't know, right? You may be the best in town and laying that brick, you can design it up, you can cut it up. I mean, it may be the most luxurious thing ever. But if you don't know anything about marketing, business, operations, advertising legal, you need to hire out for those things. Specifically, for legal, right, we don't get all these loans. And getting all this debt that Joe Biden won't relieve us from for nothing. Okay, apart. So there are ways that you need to protect yourself ways that you need to protect your business, even things that you might need to have in place to protect your clients and your customers. And so part of making sure you have a successful business is making sure you have all of those protections in place. And that's why people you know, hire me, that's why people look for attorneys to make sure that they can be locked down, they can be taken care of. When I set up my podcast, I got a logo created. I obviously recorded some podcasts, I came up with a name that I wanted to use. And I don't remember how I came along this information.
Kandice Whitaker:You know, when you're a business person or entrepreneur, I think that there's a lot of information out there. And I think, as a business owner, my biggest challenge has been trying to figure out of the information that's available of these are the things I should be doing, right, like you mentioned, like marketing and all that kind of stuff. Which things should I actually do, and what should I parse out? So I found out that the trademark office in the US, they give these online classes, right? So for me personally, consulting with a lawyer, I knew it was something I should do, but it was kind of intimidating for me. The reason it was intimidating because I'm not usually a scary person is honestly the cost. I was like, oh, that's gonna be expensive, right? Because that's what you say, Okay, I'm gonna talk to a lawyer. It's gonna be expensive. Yeah, that was an hour. So I was like, let me try to DIY I went to the class and I literally, because they offer free classes online. I went through step by step of what they were saying to do, right. Boom. I'm gonna do my trademark. Remember that for Bail Yourself Out, I met Summer the first thing I asked her about was, here's a trademark, I didn't really know what I was doing. I just follow the step by step instructions as the court doing it. And she was like, Yeah, you almost got it. Right. And that just cost me more money, right? DIY. So the cheap became the expensive. But why did that junk cost me more money because I miss parts, right? Because I'm not a lawyer. And I only knew where to point and click it person stick to it seems. So my point is I tried to thing. But in that particular scenario, it would have been cheaper for me to just consult a lawyer the first time and you are my attorney summer so you can talk about this on air. But tell people how I screwed it up, and how much more money it cost me.
Summer Burnley:Specifically thinking about trademarks, let me just put this out there too. We all love classes, we all love being able to DIY some things. And there are some things in business that you can DIY, right? But from a legal perspective, or marketing spec of the operation, whatever it is, just think about the information that they're giving you. In that class. Think about what you do, could you fully teach somebody how to do what you do in a class and then be able to fly on their own and become a master at it? Right? So that's the first thing that I want to say think about. But from a trademark perspective, there are so many nuances within trademark law, that if you are not somebody who practices in the area, you're going to miss it, right? So as an example, one of the things is you can only own a trademark within the classes that you apply and successfully get your registration. And they're like 45 different classes. So you know, there's like a class for clothing. There's a class for podcast, there's a class for consulting, you know, there's a class for legal, all these different things. Well, Kandice, one
Kandice Whitaker:I didn't know I could do more than one. She told us when we got to the part to pick a class, I picked the class. Okay.
Summer Burnley:Listen, you could do all 45 If you wanted to.
Kandice Whitaker:Damn it, I really should have.
Summer Burnley:Because we didn't do the class. And now she has two separate applications. We not only had to pay another filing fee, but then because I had to come in and listen, I'm still not over that. And there were the attorney fees, of course, like on top of that. So had she come to me or any attorney first. Specifically me, I would have been able to catch that bundle it all in one application, saved a few dollars. And then we could just get on our merry way. You're right. But God had a plan. Because what I didn't know you when this happened.
Kandice Whitaker:But as you know, it goes right. But then also, I wouldn't have had this great story of my screw up to share with my people.
Summer Burnley:She might learn from me from my mistake.
Kandice Whitaker:But that's what we are all about. Right? That is the L in my Bail framework. Learn from your mistakes and from the mistakes of other people. So I'm telling you don't make the cheap become the expensive. Do yourself a favor and consult with somebody who knows what the hell they're doing. Yeah.
Summer Burnley:Yeah. And let's be honest, Kandice, like most people that I talk to about like protecting their business, and trademarks, business, entity formation contracts, all these types of things. They're like, I'm intimidated to talk to attorney or I thought this is going to be extremely expensive, whatever the case may be, right. Each person who has tried to DIY some form of their business and then needed an attorney to come back and fix it will probably shout to the rooftops of how much more money they could have saved. If they only reached out to the attorney first. It is so much better, especially in business to be proactive, getting legal help, as opposed to reactive getting legal. Well, I love that about you. And honestly the other thing that I liked about working with you specifically that made it less intimidating for me. You had your prices out there. And that was comforting for me. Because some of your brother in some of them folks, you know how they act and they run game.
Kandice Whitaker:Like, I'll give you a perfect example. I consulted with an attorney to help my grandfather get his will and his estate all that kind of stuff together. Yeah. Because pop wanted to do it for a while and I said fine. I met this brother Who was a pastor? Everybody who in church he saved. That's a whole different conversation. And he didn't have a price list. And honestly, if it was me by myself, I would I would have turned around and I need to get my nails done what people who don't have a price list because I really like you running games, right? So this dude because pop like Tim and he felt comfortable with him. I was like, Okay, well, we'll go with it. When I tell you, this dude, not only charged, like 850, I had to write a check for retainer, to write a will that clearly was a template. And you spelled our names wrong. Oh, no. So all inabout two grand to get a will written. And then I turned around and got mine written. And it was like 500 Mm hmm.
Summer Burnley:Now, here's what I'll say, of course, attorneys. Just like when we go get our nails done, prices differ between nail shops between texts, whatever the case may be. But one of the tenets of my firm, because of what I believe, is that I offer transparent pricing. And on 99% of the services that I offer, I also offer flat fee pricing. So when you come to me, and you're like, hey, and I need to have this done, I need to have this done, I need to have this done. I couldn't say okay, for me to do this, it's going to cost this, this one is going to cost this and this one is going to cost this so that you know and that you're aware and that you can plan. That's fair, it is here. It's Yes, it's right. I don't want people to be surprised. I also know because a lot of people have intimidation, with attorneys for being sneaky, being conniving not knowing what prices are going to be. One, I don't want to I don't want to be there, right? Like always joking out to people, I'm not your grandma's lawyer. Okay. Like that. Okay, high rise building chart, you know, this charging me $5,000 For Rent I am, I like a go suit, but I'm not wearing a suit every day, like I'm not showing up to court. Like, that's just not the type of attorney you know, that that I that I am. And so I'm working with entrepreneurs and small business owners, we all know how important it is to budget. That part, we all know how important it is to know what's going out and what's coming in what you can, you know, can be expecting, right, there's so many other surprises along this journey, that I don't want legal investment to be one of them for for my clients. That's the key what you said a legal investment because at the end of the day, what summer explained to me in the process is once you get your trademark and your copyrights established, that is your intellectual property with can also right and is as I understood it included in the value of your business or something very much included in the value of your business, you know, think about it think of your business as a home, okay, and if we are putting building you a new home, and we are building that foundation of your home, you know, we're gonna make sure we have an entity formation, right, we're gonna make sure we have the foundation for the business, we're gonna need contracts, aka some walls, you know, for for the house, you're gonna have some assets in there as well, maybe their family heirlooms like well, whatever assets and stuff like for your house, right. But if you have trademarks, you have copyrights, they definitely increase the valuation of your business. And let's say if you are in the business of you have a business, you want a franchise or one you are looking not even to franchise, but you're looking to have investors invest in your business, not having those things devalue your business, right. And if we're being honest, people don't want to invest in things that they can't own.
Kandice Whitaker:Whoa, that's good. People don't want that you can't own right.
Summer Burnley:So not having a trademark for your business or your franchise or whatever the case may be. Not only does it devalue your business, but what is it that you're actually trying to get people to invest in? Right if it's not the assets of your business, right? They're buying the network that you're investing in a name, a brand. If you don't own that brand, what are you really getting them? Well think about it right? One brand that we all know people have their feeling
Kandice Whitaker:That's about it but we all know it is McDonald's. Yeah, McDonald's is known for hamburgers but how McDonald's made their money was real estate. Mm You're really dropping some gems right here I'm gonna put a paperclip in this conversation and we'll be back? All right, y'all, we back with my girl, Summer Burnley attorney Summer Burnley, we have had a wonderful conversation about how you can increase the value of your business with your intellectual property. Pay attention, make sure your copyright and your stuff make sure you're trademarking your stuff. Because at the end of the day, that is where the value of your business lies. So, in addition to trademarks, and copyrights, from a legal perspective, what do you think most business owners miss? Honestly, the basics of legal business.
Summer Burnley:Whether it is not getting a business, the proper business entity, people miss separating their personal stuff from their business, you know, ie, let's say you you have your LLC, well, you don't need to be paying for the children's daycare out out of your LLC bank account, right? You don't want to mix up the funds for that you don't want to quote unquote, pierce your corporate veil. And you know, well,
Kandice Whitaker:let's talk about that for a second. And I want you to dive deep in that. And the reason I'm saying that is because I'm not a lawyer, but I do have an MBA. Right. And so one of the things we talked about a lot in business school, was setting up the appropriate type entity. Everybody knows set up an LLC, right? So for tax purposes, you'll be taxed at a lower rate. But the reason why what she's talking about piercing the corporate veil, basically is commingling funds, basically, is you're taking your personal money and your business money, mixing them together, and you mixing them together, you doing whatever the hell you want. You can't do that. Because if you do that, you're gonna defeat the protections Correct?
Summer Burnley:sue you, they can come after your stuff. Correct? Correct. So one of the reasons why yes, you want the lower tax rate with the LLC, but you also want the protection that comes with the LLC, right? Because here's what most people don't understand. If it's only you operating your business, meaning that you're a solo printer, you're the only person who owns the LLC. From a tax standpoint, you are taxed as a solopreneur ie your taxes if you don't have the LLC at all 30% Okay, the reason why you have the LLC is for protection. It's a cya mechanism. Right? I say because contracts are the same thing, but it's a cya mechanism. And if you don't know what cya means of your ass, okay, thank you. Or I like to say cover your assets, okay, that far. So, if someone sues you, they sue you or they sue your business. Let's say someone slips and falls on your property right or you. You're coaching somebody and they don't like the advice they you gave them or whatever the case may be, so they try to come after you. If you have an LLC, they are suing the business they are now suing you. However, if the court finds that you have not treated your business as a business alone, and that you have treated your business and your personal life as one, okay? commingling of funds is one factor. But there could be other factors involved as well. Okay. That means you've pierce your corporate veil, and that they no longer see you as separate from your business. So ideally, if someone Sue's you, they can only come for the assets that the business has few pierce that corporate veil, and then that means that they can come for your assets as well ie your house, your home, your personal bank accounts, such as such.
Kandice Whitaker:So she said, check yourself before you wreck yourself,
Summer Burnley:okay? But you know, we are our biggest enemies, right? Because we have the knowledge, we have the resources to get the knowledge. But a lot of times what do we do? We go to Google University. We know we should be talking to an attorney. We know we shouldn't be talking to a CPA, but you know, we want to ask chat GPT what are the legal things we need to do for our business and follow whatever chat GPT says, who you come in for now, listen, I want to ask chat GPT. You know, how do I set up my business bank account and do whatever chat GPT says, yeah, so that part, I want to do that go to the professionals get the professional help. And for most things, I'm willing to tell people it is probably not as expensive as you think it really is. It can just you can attest to that. So you have to acknowledge that there are some people out there who are less than trustworthy. Yes, but do your due diligence and find somebody that you can vibe with? And also who can help you. So the cheap doesn't become the expensive. Yes. So I want to dial it back for a second.
Kandice Whitaker:Because you mentioned Yo, don't let chat GPT give you advice, but a little a little freebie right here. After a business has been established, you picked your entity type, whether it be LLC, an S corp, C Corp, whatever you go and do partnership. What other legalities should a new business owner consider. I mean, that's the federal level, right? You got need to get an EIN, you need to do your state filings, whatever that means. And that varies by state. What else?
Summer Burnley:So really quick, I do want to point out because I've noticed a lot of entrepreneurs are confused about the escort. Your S Corp is not a entity formation. It is a tax designation, right. A lot of people don't know that. Okay, a lot of people think oh, my business, I have an LLC S corp, or like my entity as an S Corp. and S Corp is not an entity, it is a tax designation. But the some of the other legalities that you need to be thinking about are the agreements for your business, whether they be client agreements, whether they be privacy policies, whether it be an NDA, whether it's an employee handbook, policies, agreements and contracts. You also need to be thinking about protecting intellectual property. have you invented something? Do you need a patent for it? Do you have an awesome brand name, logo slogan? Anything like that you want to protect? What a trademark? Do you have any creative works? Like pictures, podcast, video choreography that you need to protect with a copyright? Do you have a recipe any other proprietary information that's specific to your business that you need to protect with a trade secret, you know, be thinking about those types of things as well. And then some of the other things that people don't even think about business insurance, you need business insurance. You want to make sure that you have like general business insurance, making sure that you have someone to review documentation that you are signing, whether it's a lease agreement, a supplier agreement, those types of things. So, um, they're almost every thing that you can think about doing within your business has some sort of legal ramification or some sort of legal to do that is tied to it.
Kandice Whitaker:So you mentioned a whole lot of things, but the first little tidbit, I want to sprinkle with the S corp thing, right? You said that is a tax designation. In addition to getting a lawyer get you an accountant yo, if you plan on making some money. Get you an accountant. Yes.
Summer Burnley:definitely get you an accountant.
Kandice Whitaker:Get you an accountant a good one. And you also mentioned about agreements, policies, contracts. I didn't think honestly, I knew about the contracts. I knew about the agreements. I didn't think about the policies. I didn't think about that. And like, oh, we probably need to talk about that. But the other thing I want to call out, you and I had a conversation related to my work specifically, right, I am a person who provides training services to companies, right. So very often, we will come up with the terms and they provide me with a contract. But it was in the conversations with Omar, where she was like, Okay, well, what about your contract? And I was like, Well, I don't have one. You mean, I'm also give them one to? Like, what you? Did you talk about the importance of that?
Summer Burnley:Yes. Okay. So every contract should be drafted in a way that is beneficial to both parties. But here, we keep it real, right. 100, if they are providing you with a contract, they have all of their terms covered. They are not thinking about protecting you, for the most part, right? They're not thinking about what you need. They're not thinking about what's going to what's going to benefit you if the relationship goes sour then in, in business, oftentimes, we know that is that is the case, right? But especially if you are a business, who was providing a service, you should have a contract for the service that you are providing. They help see why a for you to write. And, yes, contracts can be negotiated. But we're, again, going back to if they provided you with a contract, are you going to take the extra necessary step to hire an attorney to have the attorney look over the agreement? Red Line in and negotiate it on your behalf? Or does it make more sense for you to already have a standard client service agreement, or contract that you can provide with someone who wants to hire you for your services, let them negotiate it, let them pay their attorney to redline it or send it back or negotiate on their behalf?
Kandice Whitaker:totally make sense. So essentially, you are,
Summer Burnley:you're showing up as the boss. You're saying I mean, business. It's more just thinking shifting the cost, but that to that too, right. But that's how bosses think, right? Efficiency, right? And how, especially as a small business entrepreneur, and I say small business, not to undermine or throw shade, I think we can look at the SBA and I don't remember what the norm the number is, but they classify a small business is a business that makes under certain millions of dollars, right? Which is most most of the businesses Yeah, right. Right. So let's not shade anybody, I just want to put that out there. But you need to be thinking about strategically, the best way to operate your business. And putting some of those costs up front as opposed to you front loading them or back loading them, I guess, I should say, is a more beneficial process and more efficient process for you as a business owner.
Kandice Whitaker:And it also makes sense for you to put in the things that are important to you. Like I remember at the conference where we met one of the speakers said, after a client reviewed her client agreement, they were like, No, it wasn't after they reviewed her agreement after she put out what she was going to say when she was coming. They were like, yeah, so you can't say that. And she was like, yeah, in my contract. I say whatever I want. And so they tried to play. And she was like, Well, you already signed it. So you're gonna pay me. I don't have to come that's fine, but you have to pay me. And I was like, Oh, snap. Yeah. So that's how that happens.
Summer Burnley:Yep. So she I paid for a gig that she didn't even go speak it. Okay. But that's part of the terms of your contract and how we talk about cya. Like as an example. I'll tell you, I did a speaking engagement over the summer. And I like to use like hip hop and pop culture references when I talk because people we understand is that season diaspora that is for us, okay. And the part about contracts where I was talking about like essential terms. And I was given the example of our resident hot girl made the stallion how she is essentially, okay. Been in a lawsuit battle over the meaning of album, okay? Yes, everyday words have meaning. And contracts are supposed to define them. She's an artist, Her job is to produce work that goes into an album. So you would think if that's an essential part of the work that she's doing, it would have been defined? What determines an album? Right? So does an album mean, you need to have 10 songs does an album mean? You don't need to have it only has to be you and part of your album, you can't have any features like, what does it mean to have an album? What does that mean? And so right now, they're in court fighting over the meaning of the word album, which sounds crazy, right?
Kandice Whitaker:What is she trying to get? I know, there's some meaning behind that.
Summer Burnley:So they're trying to say she didn't fulfill her contract, because she didn't essentially put out an album, while she's saying, yo, I gave you all this music that was on this album. What do you mean, I didn't give you an album. So they're trying to say, well, by album we met 123. That's where the disagreement is. He's like, Oh, well, I gave you something that could be considered an album. But because they didn't define the terms of actually what an album is, it's now a dispute. It's now a legal battle. Well, that
Kandice Whitaker:makes sense. Anytime you don't define the terms of what your expectations are, you can expect them to be met. I mean, that's an any scenario.
Summer Burnley:That's an any scenario. But for people who say are not attorneys, if you were not an attorney, and clearly their attorneys missed it, too. So that's neither here nor there. Right? But for instance, if you're like, oh, yeah, I'm going to complete you know, an album needs to be completed, right? You're gonna put that in your contract? Because Okay, well, yeah, you need to complete an album. But do you define what an album is? Most people don't think that far. Right. And so most of the reason you have an attorney who are looking over your contracts and making sure that they're drafted properly is because we're thinking okay, not about right now. But what's going to happen if they don't fulfill this album, right, we think about the end in mind, we think about if stuff goes south, what is the court going to look at? What is the judge going to look at? So in my mind, I think okay, if this goes south over an album, the court is going to say, Okay, well, what is an album? So the first thing that I'm going to do is look at your contract does it define what an album is? No, guess what? We'll we need to put that in there.
Kandice Whitaker:That part? Right, that's totally make sense. I love the way this conversation is going. We're going to take a break right here, we'll be back. I'm back on the lounge couch with my girl, Summer Burnley attorney who has been given us some amazing legal gems, but I have some questions for you in our last little break together. All right, we talked about not dy I am stuff but I feel like and maybe I'm wrong personally, and I'm not a lawyer. There are certain things people could do without a lawyer and not screw it up too much. And then there are certain things now girl, get you a lawyer. So I'm gonna ask your opinion. Now, I'll give you my opinion as a non lawyer. I have an MBA, so I know enough to be dangerous. But this is a person who has a different background and definitely different knowledge and education in this area. Setting up an LLC, do you need a lawyer? Yes or no?
Summer Burnley:It depends. Yeah. So I typically tell my clients, if it's just you who owns the LLC, you could probably file the LLC yourself with the state and be okay. Typically, I have clients who have paid me to file their LLC and I typically tell them you're not paying me to file the LLC just so you know, what you're paying me for is to draft the operating agreement, or you're not paying me to file your corporation what you're paying me for is to draft your articles of incorporation. Right? But most states have a lot of information and know how it's typically a very simple form. You need to make sure you know you're you're not using a name somebody already has that you make the right designation that's allowed by your state like the letters LLC. Some states say you can do LLC with periods in between like an abbreviation some say you can spell out Limited Liability Company Right. So as long as you know what you're doing from that aspect, a single member LLC is pretty hard to mess up. Me really, you fill out the form, you pay the fee, whatever it is, yeah. If you happen to need a operating agreement, because somebody asked, that's what you use chat GPT? No, you definitely do not use Chat GPT you know, our trigger you with that?
Kandice Whitaker:Exactly why I Said it.
Summer Burnley:Chad team , gonna get you chat f'd up.
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Kandice Whitaker:if you're the only person in the LLC, like, yeah, that's what we're gonna do it bi. Honestly, I do use chat GPT from time to time for things, but I don't use it straight out the box. Like, for me, the hardest part in writing sometimes is kind of just getting the flow. So I'll use chat GPT if it's like a letter or something I don't care about and then I'll do what I say put salt and pepper on it, then I'll go through it and read it and be like, oh, we'll put this ad that don't use the straight out the box.
Summer Burnley:Well, yeah. And that's fine, right? Like, that's how you're different than doing something legal or something, you know, like that requires technical knowledge, per se.
Kandice Whitaker:So here's the other thing, right? Because I think there probably is a lot of people who might be listening who don't know anything about an operating agreement or anything like that. And personally, you know, I've had an LLC, or obviously, I started with an LLC for quite a long time. But it wasn't until I started engaging in government contracts that I needed to show my operating agreement, and those sorts of documents. So I think a lot of people might not even know about that, you know what I mean? And nor would they understand the importance of that. So, just to be clear, our standpoint is LLC, if it's a single member, I think you could do it by yourself. Summer says if it's multiple people, gonna get you an attorney. But you also need to consider that attorney for operating agreement, and so forth like that. And you'll need that operating agreement if you get in some government contracts, if that's the thing you want to do. All right. Next thing, trade name filing with the state, right. So this is whether you can use the name of your business in your state. Do you need an attorney to do that? Yes or no?
Summer Burnley:I would probably say no, I mean, most states are pretty clear as long. It's a different standard than the USPTO. So I want to put that out there. But most states are pretty clear that if it's not the exact name that's being used, you could easily go File an even shorter document than the articles of work. Organization for your LLC online and do it you just want to make sure you search for the name to make sure it's okay.
Kandice Whitaker:Contract.
Summer Burnley:definitely get you an attorney.
Kandice Whitaker:I would say that to definitely get you an attorney on contract. Copyright.
Summer Burnley:It depends on what your copywriting there are some things that you could copyright and do a quick application and honestly probably navigate the process yourself. But then you could also have things a little bit more complicated, like the copyright we just did, where a lot of people like lay people would not know the trick that I
Kandice Whitaker:So we can definitely talk about that. So for the podcast of yours truly, I got the episodes. Be right it. So I did what every other I think person who has a business who wants things done does I Googled it, because that's where you start right aren't those and Googling. It kind of confused me No, very much confused me. It didn't help at all. So because I was already engaged with summer with the trademark. I was like, You know what, let's just throw that on there. We already here. So here's the thing. So I'll tell you the cheat code that I got, right? So you guys know I have a podcast. And so the first thing she said to me was listen hasn't been published yet. And I said, Well, no, I was actually still in the process of working on season one. You guys know were pre recorded. We don't go live. We can't put everything we say out here, y'all. We need to. So she was like, Okay, great. Before I came to Summer, I thought that I would need to get each individual sewed in a did so that we can get your stuff approved where you would season. Poppy written separately, which I was like, dang, that's going to be expensive. I don't have any money to do that, like merch company. We're still working on, want to speak to an attorney about. you know, everyday operations and stuff like that. Maybe we'll just work on copyright and it later. This is why you paid a lawyer he or she was like, well, since you didn't put it out yet. Here's what you can do. We can file it under one application, get them all copy written together. And that will save you the money of having to individual copyright them Now mind you, I've even looked at other lawyers websites, and they
Summer Burnley:I want to tell the people how much money you all made it seem like they had to be individual. So this is why I'm telling you some of them do be running games. Talk to an interview your lawyer so Oh, I was able to do the one application and copyright my whole season with one application just from talking to summer. I didn't try to do that one myself. So that one definitely saved me a whole lot of money. That was worth it right there. saved. So let's say assuming she went to an attorney who charged the same thing that I charged, and they said, No, we have to do each individual episode. But it was 10 episodes in a season, because you could do 10 episodes on one application is what I learned. Okay, so assuming she'd done that, she would have had to spend 6750 extra dollars. So by having a consultation with me not trying to do it herself, me give her the cheat code. She saved $6,750. See, the cheap became the expensive come Oh, jesus and only spend? It technically is more than that, because that's only the legal fees that doesn't even include the filing fees. So that part more than 7000.
Kandice Whitaker:Oh, so we talked about copyright, what can be covered under the quick application for copyright, you said we can do the quick app. But what is that?
Summer Burnley:The quick app would be like just your standard application where you're only trying to protect one thing at a time. So like if you only want to do one picture, or one podcast episode, or one video, or whatever the case may be. And let me back up because I am oversimplifying. When it comes to like protecting a podcast, you and I talked about this, like how you guys don't see us, but we are on video. If you had like a video podcast, you could protect the video. But then you can also protect the audio, because they are two different types of creative works. Those are two different types of two different applications. But you can protect a lot of things with a copywriter book or ebook, worksheets, guides, choreography, video, audio, music, anything creative that you can think of you can protect with a copyright. And there's more than one type of application. We won't get into all that but it depends on like I said, what you're trying to protect? And in what way?
Kandice Whitaker:Call Summer for all that. Next. trademark.
Summer Burnley:What about trademark lawyer for now? Oh, definitely don't get a lawyer. So here's what I tell people. The trademark process is very nuanced. It takes about 18 to 24 months before you actually receive a federal registration. It is not you don't apply and then get your trademark you have to go through the entire process to receive your trademark. The other part about that is is if you are a US citizen, yes, they do allow you to file your trademark without an attorney. If you are not a US citizen legally, you are required to file your application with an attorney. And most people take that and run with it. But here's what I'll tell you that is not something you need to the trademark process. You can represent yourself pro se without an attorney for anything that we have in the US you could murder somebody and not have an attorney and represent yourself right you could get a DUI and not use an attorney to represent yourself. Why would you want to?
Kandice Whitaker:listen, I had a law teacher in school that would say he who represents himself has a fool for a client.
Summer Burnley:Okay, that is the truth. Forget to is because the internet has made the trademark process seem like such an easy process. All you have to do is fill out paperwork and submit it and then real yo we know TV it is generation stop playing. That is not real. Okay. The truth of the matter is there are a lot of nuances. There are a lot of things that go into the process. There are several stages that go into the process. And even at the first stage Okay, after you hear from them if they give you a red light or yellow light and then you have to hire an attorney to help you with that process. It cost more again, we've talked about this being reactive and going to an attorney and say Oh, I eff this up I need your help.
Kandice Whitaker:The cheap becomes the expensive
Summer Burnley:the cheap becomes the expensive that this is a reoccurring theme here on the podcast but legal I'm telling you we with nothing else today.
Kandice Whitaker:Learn from my mistakes. Wait, I feel like what was that quote from The Color Purple. You don't want to trade places with me. Remember that you know what it was sitting around the table.
Summer Burnley:Listen, find you the right attorney and let them do their thing. While you can enjoy doing your own thing. Whatever it is that your skill set is that you are in business for you You enjoy doing that thing and let somebody else handle the rest of the stuff.
Kandice Whitaker:This has been an amazing episode. Thank you so much for your amazing knowledge. And hopefully our friends listening have learned something that they can apply to their business and to their lives. Tell them how they can get up with you if they need some services.
Summer Burnley:Yes, listen, you can find me on Instagram. I do have a Tiktok. You can also email me Instagram Tiktok Facebook, it is Burnley law B U R N L E Y l a w email me hello at Burnley law.com and just just reach out to me I'm here to help you.
Kandice Whitaker:I love you for listening. We out
