Code Switching or Nah

The conversation revolved around the complexities of code-switching in professional settings, exploring its various forms, cultural implications, and impact on work-life balance. Speakers shared personal experiences and perspectives on the challenges of navigating societal expectations and stereotypes, the importance of recognizing and valuing diverse cultural identities, and the need for self-expression and authenticity. They also discussed the significance of having a good boss, the challenges and opportunities faced by Black entrepreneurs in building successful businesses, and the strategies for navigating the corporate world and transitioning to entrepreneurship. Finally, they argued that respectability politics in professional environments is not about respectability but control, and the need to break away from stereotypes to achieve success and respect.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Intro
• 4:49 Code-switching and its impact on professional identity.
• 10:31 Cultural appropriation and code-switching in professional settings.
• 16:28 Code-switching, work-life balance, and good work environments.
• 23:33 Code switching, respectability politics, and professionalism in the workplace.
• 28:35 Workplace dress code and authenticity.
• 32:11 Cultural identity, code-switching, and potential.
• 38:03 The challenges of running a business as a black person, including stereotypes and lack of support.
• 45:50 Code-switching, entrepreneurship, and maintaining humanity in corporate and entrepreneurial spaces.
• 52:49 Code-switching and creating spaces for authenticity.

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the bail yourself out Appy Hour Podcast, where each week we'll help you navigate the corporate jungle. Here's your host, Kandice Whitaker is happy hour. Welcome to bail yourself out Happy Hour pod friends. Here we focus on personal growth, career growth, and entrepreneurship. Our crew is dedicated to providing you with the insights necessary to turn your dreams into reality and get your money up. In each episode, we'll explore strategies rooted in the bail method of resilience, guiding you to conquer challenges and thrive in everything you do. I'm your host, Kandice Whitaker. And at the age of 21. I was a determined young mother who wanted to ensure my best possible light and defied the odds. So I took steps towards achieving the life I desire. I got my master's degree, then I was a sought after consultant, which led me to starting my own company, I have a passion for guiding people into the life they envision through resilience using the bail yourself out approach. So I'm happy you're here. Kick off your shoes and relax your feet. Fill up your favorite drink because the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast is about to start. You're listening to Kansas with a cake and together we'll learn how to bail yourself out, be believed that you can a accept change is a natural part of any process. I inventory your strengths and the strengths available to you and your network. Now learn from your experience the experience of others. Hey everybody, welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour lounge. I am so excited about today's episode in the lounge, we got some brands who have been part of the lounge couple of times. So we just got to open it up and have a real relaxed conversation with Zach Adams formerly known as Terry Johnson, I'm springing his perspective on psychotherapy. And you know, you're looking for a therapist, Zach up, he's a licensed therapist in North Carolina, Maryland and Virginia is our resident dei expert. Yolanda gore. Welcome to the happy hour lounge. And today we are going to talk about code switching. So where this all came from is aside from the fact that we are all black professionals that work in the United States. So we all have some experience with code switching. Harvard Business Review, actually came out with an article on code switching, I'm going to read what Harvard Business Review had to say about code switching, and then we'll take our perspectives on it. Harvard Business Review describes this as a kind of behavioral adjustment, which is casually referred to as code switching, which has long been a strategy for black people to successfully navigate interracial interactions, and has large implications for their well being, economic advancement and even physical survival. Research suggests that code switching often occurs in spaces where negative stereotypes of black people run counter to what is considered appropriate behaviors and norms for a specific environment. My first thing is that I find kind of weird, is that they say Code switching is for black people. And we can tell them, yeah. Other people have been called switching to economic access. Right? So it really doesn't matter who it is. But also safety to a certain extent, too, because you know, we all have to have that conversation with our kids. Right? Yes. Every culture that comes over here, like even when you think about the heavy focus to that you see other cultures to get rid of their accent, right? That is still a form of code switching, because you're trying to hide your native tongue as much as possible to seem fully American. But do you think it's attributed to black people? Because we're the ones that talk about it. We're probably the ones that started it. We are the ones that started it. The Irish when they were brought over as indentured servants. They were the first crew who was basically trying not to have an accent. They weren't originators. They were originally owners of that. But when you think about actually having to adjust behaviors, whiteness, probably a Native American people primarily. But I think that probably goes back to slavery as well. Again, economic survival. Because the closer proximity you had to whiteness, the better your life would be. Yes, right. It's slavery and Jim Crow. Because remember Jim Crow, that's when they started penalizing us for every little thing you Has dictating behavior. So if you hung out on the corner, even though you didn't do anything criminal, and even though a white person could do it as a black person, you could get a felony just for that. And that was the whole purpose of the pig laws. Jim Crow made every black people do bad demonize it, make it illegal, make it a felony. And so then you start getting the crafting of behavior to say, Okay, if you don't do this, like us, then it's criminal. So it's not even just like, it's different. No, we went up, they went all the way and was like, no screw. Yeah. But do you think part of that was a financial incentive, meaning that you're feeding the prison industrial complex in that way, and not to go down that rabbit hole, shout out to the new Jim Crow. write that book, once slavery was over. And you know, 100 years later, we have Jim Crow, yo, there still is a very large economic impact of all of that free labor going, what is the only way to be able to get someone to work for free under the US Constitution, put him in jail. And that is where it started. Because with the pig laws, they started being able to, you know, arrest us at a higher rate. And then one thing goes to the next generation goes to the next generation exactly where it started. And there are more people in prison than have ever been a slave. Do you think code switching has helped you? I can say for myself, I definitely feel like there have been some advantages, especially earlier in my career, when I understood how to look a certain way and to sound a certain way to make folks feel comfortable to make them feel like I was a good one. That was great. But I do you know, after a certain while, you know, when Candace started coming out, there was definitely a psychological impact connected with that, because I literally had white folks say to me, I'm confused by you. I didn't know I needed you to understand, but that's okay. Like, what is your confusion mean to me? I didn't know I needed to unconfuse you. I didn't think as an elder millennial, I was in office sitting in the ice cube tray with middle aged white women. Yeah, and I was 25. Remember the days we really have nothing in common anyway. And they're looking at me and their kids are like my age. very cognizant of the fact that I am in my family, the first generation born with my rights in tech. So it's not like I could go to my parents and say, Yo, what was your experience with this? They didn't have an experience with this. Right? Right. They didn't have laws to, you know, not get people not to hire them based on what they look like, or how they spoke and that kind of thing. Like we are it, right. But the problem with being a person who breaks down the barrier, you run the risk of being destroyed that by the barrier, you're breaking down, no one tells you that. That was true. Because especially if you're a first gen in corporate, specifically in corporate or in a leadership role, there's some adjustment, of course that you have to make, right? Like I grew up in the 90s are a gangsta rap. So you can't go into the office and be like, Yo, I said, what I said, like, you can't do that, right. But on the flip side, though, there is a part of like natural growth where you're like, Okay, I don't give every part of me and every place, right, because I realized when I go into different spaces, I do adjust, right? So when I'm going before Grandma, I get all that slang out because grandma don't want to hear that she's the one to say, baby. Right? Right, not just for grandma. But I think it's different with the code switching, because it's like, they really want you to, like, a simulate. And there's a forcing to that. And there's the whole concept of whoever you are, whatever culture it is, wherever you got that from that is wrong, that like they sit in the seat of judgment about who you are, because you are not them. And that's where it becomes degrading. And so it's like, throughout my career, yes, the code switching has helped to a degree, but it did it internally. And so I started, like, at a certain point after I got out of the beginnings of my career, because I still needed my bag. Okay, like, I knew were magic. Still need it. That's hard. Right? It is what it is. Right? But then it was like no, I still gotta get back to me. While I am going to show up authentic me being authentic doesn't mean I'm a professional. Black doesn't mean I'm professional Latino don't mean I'm professional. Personal color doesn't mean unprofessional. It just means that we have our own flavor, our own style, or the ways that we show up. Or if you have a disability, right? It doesn't mean you're unprofessional. It might mean it does mean I'm not white, for me as a black woman. And so the way I show it with executive presence is going to be different than the way John, who's a middle aged white man is going to show up. But it doesn't mean I'm wrong, and neither doesn't mean that he's right. It just means that this is the way they're both showing up. I totally agree with that. But I think part of that comes from the fact that our culture is not widely respected. It's just not copied. Because it's copied. Copy. Yeah, those are two different things. Like I'm gonna tell y'all a story. We got into a little Facebook debate on this one, my son was like in second grade, they had international day at school. And normally, because we have Southern American and Jamaican heritage, we're both I kind of just default with Jamaican because it's a little bit easier. Let's rock some beef patties. I cool. My son comes home and says, No, for International Day. I want to bring fried chicken. And I was like, No. I posted it on Facebook. My cousin posted this. Yo, who doesn't like fried chicken. Let that boy bring fried chicken and I was like, You know what? You're right. But at the same time, I don't want my son to be the black boy that brought fried chicken. And yeah, you see what I'm saying? But like even as we roll it, y'all letting y'all you let your kids bring fried chicken to school is Asian folks don't catch this much heat behind because they love watermelon and fried chicken because their culture is not disrespected is from a black culture perspective. We are often mimicked, we're often you know, the who's invited to the picnic or who's you know, it's all fun and games when everyone else does it. But us Oh, there was an article where Kim Kardashian came to some show maybe I don't know, some large fashion show or whatever. And she had cornrows? Yes, I remember that the boat, they remember they were calling it boxer braids. They were like, Oh, she's rocking a new fresh boxer braids. But meanwhile, a lot of black women have shown up to any award show with some florals in her hair. Got your way. Right, like, back in the day, you show up with corn rolls, it's a problem. But when they go to Jamaica and get their hair braided, okay.$5 per braid. And that's why I like even what work that's why rock my nails because I'm like, I'm not waiting for you to give me permission. Until you know Kaylee comes in here with long nails. And now you think is cool. No, this is who I am. This is been who I am. I'm going to keep my long nails and I will still ascend to the top. That part, you know what your lot and I had a conversation last week. And I know we were talking about code switching. And you know, we all admitted in the beginning of our career that we use it and they help us get in the door to a certain extent, right? You got to kind of play the game to get in the door. Right. But I feel like and this was our conversation that there's two different types of code switching, there is code switching that's like manners, so that everybody can feel comfortable. And we have this level playing field. But then there's a there's a code switching that's toxic, where you're not being your authentic self. And I'm not really sure what the line is, per se is Zack, you know, you're the psychologists. Can you speak to that? Yeah. Do you know what you got went too far with it? I will. Yeah, I think that when you cross the line of it being disrespectful, that's when it becomes something else. And we're gonna see more negative implications of using it. So if it's, you know, as getting in the door, and we're code switching, you know, like, I might walk in the door and say, Hi, um, that, right? Don't try to get in the door. Once I'm in the door. I might be like, what's up in that? You know, so, it's all about like, is that still being respected? The minute that a Caucasian person says to me, though, you know, oh, wow, you have a cool name. That might be you know, where it starts to be more of a negative thing, and I might start to even have thoughts and second guessing myself, you know, basis because now I'm not being respected although I code switched for you. Because it's so damn, it's not for me in any way. It was for me to get in the door. But once I'm through that, 90 days, I'm in the door, right? That part, but you know what, and I swear this is another whole podcast to like Are we really going to talk about the amount of black professionals who get their 90 days extended, they be on PI peas, people because they jobs. That's a whole different podcast that we need to talk about y'all. But like, what you said, what you inferred in that last statement was that basically, we have our own way of being in the world, which I think we all set to a certain extent. And I love that we have our own thing that is just like our code that we understand like, remember when the Obamas this bumped? Yeah. And we was like, I Okay. And everybody was like, what's that? Like, it was some ancient code or something that they just slipped into. It low key is that's our, you know, our little thing, but, you know, feeling uncomfortable when we do things that they just don't understand? Well, that's because whenever we've done it going back to slavery is because who's getting the freedom? They don't like? They don't like the coding of the messages. We've been doing that since we got here coding messages, talk to one another. And they're like, No, I need to know everything. So I could trace, right? I mean, is it coded? Or is it just, yeah, don't care what we doing? You're just so involved in your own world, and we have our own stuff that you don't pay us no mind. Like, I think it's more of that they literally can get through their whole entire lives and not know anything about us, or what we do. And and I'm not saying you need to be well versed, it is also not our responsibility to educate anybody on what we do. We're your neighbors, for all intents and purposes, and every aspect of life if you want to know, like a simple Google search. Yeah, I grew up in New York, you know, and so I have a bit of a different perspective on life, Brenda, and I grew up in New York, you know, you're gonna run into Asian culture, you're going to run into Hispanic culture, Middle Eastern culture, and you know, when you go into the neighborhoods, things are going to be a little bit different. And you just kind of lean with it rock with it. I think, you know, the majority, unfortunately, to their detriment in this country has not really focused on understanding their neighbors, right. It's we don't need you to except it's just understand that we do our thing. And don't judge it like point blank period. But I think part of it is going back to that I am supreme type of thinking. Because the requirement is no the neighbors need to learn who we are learn our standard and move around us in order for us to accept them. It's not about the neighbors accepting us know, you need our approval. And so you there's this, this focus, and I've seen some people come out of it, right. But also to grown in in New York is a little different, right? Because like the Italians, they live DMX. Right? They love all the stuff that we love. You know what I'm saying? But that's because the culture is different, right? And so there's a lot of, there's a melting pot. Right? That's different than what I've seen in other places with what I've seen is like, No, I want you to move around. And it's a good place to take a break, we'll be back. Get the full bail yourself out Happy Hour lounge community by signing up for our community newsletter. And when you sign up, you get a free download of your choice. And you will be entered to win a limited edition earliest outdoor podcast t shirt now monthly draw. Sign up today. out.com. We'll see you there. So tell me are you enjoying the show? gone ahead and rate us five stars and leave a comment. Now back to the show. Welcome back. Y'all did a bail yourself out Happy Hour lounge. I'm here with my friends, Dr. Brenda Carter, Zach Adams, and Yolanda gore. And we are discussing code switching and all the implications to that. But before we get into our next couple of questions, I want the audience to get to know who we're talking to. So I'm going to ask you all this or that. So the first one I'm going to start with is that$225,000 annual salary with no work life balance or 125,000 annual salary with a nine to five schedule and four weeks vacation, which one you take in 225. We work in 24/7 or 125. And you got a nine to five. I'm gonna go for the 225 ballots. Thank you last 25 All right. Because I ended up balanced as it is. And that 25 will get me my check, run my money. My Account needs to be well padded. Okay, and then I can leave later. All right. It worked out seven days a week as it is so you might as well take that too. If I would take the 125, but you know, I'm that person, I will take the 125. And up at five o'clock, my person is under my arm, and I'm leaving, and my four weeks vacation. That's totally fine. These are all subjective. And I really think that's something we got to drive home to the younger folks, everything is about choices. Yeah, you know, some builders looking at me like ah, you got a choice not to pay, and you're gonna be out like this. Anyway, the only way I'm gonna be here another day is if I'd be able to take my days off. In my mind. I'm literally just working to my next vacation. But that's just me. Yeah. Well, I think that depends on where you are in life as well. I think that that's something that you can absolutely say now. When I was like that when I made 50 grand, Oh, Jesus. For me, I see me probably getting a little bit eased off of that. My money hungriness, I guess we can say. Once my kids get a little bit older, and I'll have some things off me. Yeah, then it's more so probably when focused on I'm just working for my next vacation. But for me right now, in my prime time, when my sprinkler that and that's the other thing. I've already done that, you know, my kids are older and all like, right. So All right, next one, great work environment are great boss, I'm gonna take a great boss. Because I've stayed in bad work environments. With a amazing boss, I feel like the boss determines your life more than the environment. But that's just my perspective. I agree. So if you have a great boss who has a lot of strong social capital, they can help you survive the bad environment, and you can still, you know, move up and do all of the things you need to do that boss is a big thing. Because the boss is what determines whether you go postal, or whether you are the sweetest thing that they've ever seen. since sliced bread. Literally. I think a good boss is important because like that sets the tone of all the rest of the place that you work at, you know, everybody else is going to be in alignment with the ball, she might have a few bad apples, but you can slap them along the way and keep moving with a good boss. Agree saying a good boss, definitely. Over my career. Definitely a good boss, I'll take a good boss any day over perfect work environment, it's work. It's not perfect. There's nothing perfect about work, right. And it was hard to get up every day and go to work. There's nothing perfect about it I'd rather have wouldn't be called Canvas, we're in the rest for those a new work that it's like, you know, might as well have somebody that's helping drive the ship be a good person at least is like we're in this together right here. So good. All right, last one, would you prefer an open accepting in person work environment, or code switching 100% work from home, I'm gonna be home code switching, that's what I'm gonna be doing. The thing I'm gonna tell you, I don't mind going in person. Let me tell you why. Because it's a part of my authenticity, I sometimes like to stunt when I go to work. So, so if you are open, so accept that all it is open, we're gonna have a good time, you're gonna get all of the brinda flavor, everything that come with it. So yeah, open up the doors. But please don't leave, I'm gonna go have a ball and I'm be studying, you are not entered into the room she has arrived. She worked from home code switching. And let me be very clear, my choice to work from home has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that I still want to wear pajamas. So if code switching allows that you know what I can I have a really great white voice. And I'll sound like this on every zoom call. And we can definitely make sure that we adjust our deliverables to meet your timeline. Okay, great. Let me circle back with you. And we'll talk about this offline. Cash salutely Yeah, I'm gonna be in the office with Brenda cuz I can't do that if I was gonna bring somebody I will do that and then turn up Knuck If You Buck, okay, right after me in the house. I guess I'm gonna have to go with going in the office. I mean, can I do it for eight hours a day? Absolutely. Given my certain my specific situation, I have an infant. So it's like, you know, I have to do what to do. But my preference is to show up a little bit, especially if it's not a far drive, you know, to commute not bad. I'm gonna show up like Brenda Simpson a little bit, you know, I'm gonna walk up in there. You're gonna know I'm here. I'm here. So, yeah. There's a certain aspect and we touched on this in the last segment of code switching. That's it. respectability politics of sorts, and I don't think that is limited to black people or people of color. I know it's not right. I just think there are some people who participate in that more than others. As a consultant, I've traveled all over the country and worked in different places. And the difference from going into office in New York City, versus an office in LA versus an office in Arizona is completely different. Like, I remember working for organization, Yolanda, and I work for the same organization, where I had a director come in, throw a stack of, I don't know what the hell they were in a folder on the desk and say, this is all fucked up, figure out what the fuck is happening here. And I was the only one with my eyebrows up. Everybody else was like, Oh, what is that? Let me see. They like literally went right into problem solving mode. So apparently, this was normal behavior. Could you imagine the point of us know wasn't? You already know that? Let's see. That's the problem with respectability politics, right? Because it's not really a consistent guideline of goalposts. Right, it's like, they can do it. You can. So is it really about it being respectable? Right. So back to biases, because if you know, there was a time period where, you know, don't be a woman coming in tatted up, but if a man wants to come in tatted all the way up, or he has his sleeve, it's okay. But if a black man comes in tatted up, and he's got it on his neck, what were you or were you a felon? No. Right. And so, at the time, the narrative was, well, you can't have tattoos is unprofessional or whatever. But then when they started doing it, it was like, oh, it's not unprofessional anymore. It's okay. So it's like when you say respectability, it's not really about respectability. It's not it's really to control behavior, because you pick and choose who has to follow the respectability principles. And you get to say, who doesn't? Yes, you literally do. And that doesn't make it right. My only feeling about respectability politics, is that I do feel like there should be some level of mutual respect. Yes, decorum. Manners. Yes. I don't know what the hell we want to call it. But everybody should be acting, right? Yeah, being a decent human. Exactly. I don't want to limit that to say that is code switching, because code switching has nothing to do with manners. I feel like you know, in a professional environment, we should all be experiencing a certain level of the rules that we should engage in come looking a certain way, or can you speak speak a certain way, because it is about being understood. And at some point, I feel like and younger generations. We should accept y'all for who you are. But y'all took it a little too far. I think just a little too far. And in that, I'm saying that because I'm like, okay, yeah, you can wear whatever you want. But pajama pants, ain't it? Yeah, right. Wear your hair natural, cool. But unkempt. A natural brushing, okay, hair walk balls in in this stuff. I mean, but to that point, there comes a point in time where we need to kind of draw the line in the sand, right? Because, you know, you have a person in the younger generation, excuse you, you're trying to make me code switch. And I don't want to code switch. It's not necessarily Code switching is showing up, like you said, properly dressed in being professional, but I'm using the word professional, you know, loosely because I know that the word professional is kind of loaded. But however, if you know you work at an office job, I'm not trying to stop you from being yourself by saying, hey, put on some decent pants, put on a decent blouse or shirt or whatever. You know, brush your hair come in, you're coming around people make sure you wash your face and brush your teeth. That's all normal things. But I feel like to some the minute you start saying these things, it's Oh no, you're trying to stifle me from being who I am. And right you do it. That's my edge. We got to draw the line somewhere, right? Like I do understand that with code switching, it can be very difficult because it's like I'm not like them and I don't want to come in and pretend that I like mountain hiking when I don't do mountain hiking because I'm trying to fit in and I'm trying to you know relate to them. I'm not trying to tell you gotta go that far. I think it's the bare minimum to say hey, come in dressed a specific way that has nothing to do with cold switching or anything like that. That's literally all to do with just coming in. Respectable respecting yourself is more couple points that you may build that I like, because So number one, and this is what I've even said to my mentees that are younger, so you're more than your dress, just because you have to change your clothes. That doesn't mean that that's who you are. And so you're not allowed to be authentic or who you are being authentic is like, in you, right. So for example, like you mentioned, mountain climbing right now, you don't like mountain climbing, that's who you are. I don't like mountain climbing. But at the same time, don't close yourself off from certain experiences. Because like, I know, as a first gen in corporate, like I said before, there's certain things I had never been exposed to that I thought that I didn't like. And then when I went there, I was like, Oh, snap, like, this is really cool. So now it expands my definition of authenticity. And so there's another version of me that I'm learning about, but it had nothing to do with like my clothes, or how I present, right. And even when you think about, like how you show up, if I look at it like this, like when you think about, say a person back in the day, and maybe all they did was dress casual. And then they find out like yo, this producer want to meet me, he won't put me on, you change your clothes, you might even find out like, oh, they want you to wear a button up. So you'll put the button up on right. And you'll do what you have to do in order to accomplish the mission to get in the door. It doesn't mean that you're changing who you are, there's a difference you are more than your external. And I think we as like more seasoned professionals, we've learned that I'm not just what I look like, right? Even when you think about like embodying who you are, that takes a lot of deep work that takes time to realize your likes your don't like some things. It's not that you don't like it, you haven't been exposed. This is a trigger. This is what makes you tick. Oh, wait, I'm a high performer. Because when you're showing up at a job you're showing up to really give your talent, right. That's the whole thing, Brenda, like, I love everything that you said, but what you said just made me think of something, I had an epiphany, what we all know, what's kind of been the unspoken thing is that in our culture, we have a good amount of who we are tied to how we look. And I think that is something that's very unique to our culture. You know, because for years, that literally probably was the only thing that we had the only differentiating factor that we had, you know, well, we looked good, even though we had that Louis Vuitton bag with $3 in it. And $2.75 in your checking account, and you had the look. And so when you start talking to people, especially younger ones who are still in the process of developing their identity, you are in a sense attacking their core that is them even though you know we've grown to the point to know that what you look like in the things that you have that's not you everybody is not there Yeah, right. Yeah, and the other thing that I thought about was remember when Oh folks used to say you bring it down the whole race scarred the whole right grandma Oh no, I will not be back for Thanksgiving I wonder if and you know, I struggle with that because I have been in places where other black folks have said to me look at them see what they doing? They bringing us all down they don't represent me I don't know they're being rose barely know you. Me about them. We had this collective feeling that Yolanda even though I may have just met you in the aisle of the grocery store, if you act out all these white folks gonna look at me like I'm crazy too. And they used to be all black people have friends know that. Even if we don't even know each other like that for real even know each other or talk to each other. Well, if you think about it, right, like even when we're in certain spaces, I will be on alert just in case. Like if I see another black woman or a black man and we are in a space full of white folks. I am still watching out to make sure that they are okay and that knows nothing stupid happens around you In my space, because I don't want to leave them out there by themselves, right? Because you know, sometimes the microaggressions, and all of that. And I've been in spaces where I've been on my own, and I would never want to leave someone out there because sometimes you know what it is, right? You see a brother walk in, he looks great. And if someone gives this, Oh, you look like a pip. And so of course, I'm gonna want to jump in and be like, Well, wait a minute, I'm sorry. Wasn't Hugh Hefner when he considered him? Like, don't do those correlations. And so I'm like aware, just in case. It's interesting that you say that I don't do that for other grownups. But I do pay attention to black children. I do. And I remember being on a flight. You know, when I was a consultant, I used to be on flights quite often. And I've more than once had to check a flight attendant for how she was talking to somebody's black child who was flying alone. Yeah, not on my watch. It's literally everywhere. And it's, you know, at the end of the day, I feel like some of the intention with Code switching is to get people who are committed to misunderstanding us accept and understand us, right? Yeah. And now here's the thing, no, there is a balance. Because I do know that there has been times where sometimes we focus too much on the look, rather than a performance, like even starting in school, right, make sure you look good for your first day, we buy you the clothes and all of the things but then when they're having trouble in school, we don't get the tutors, we don't do all of the things to actually invest in the performance and the full potential. Like there have been time periods where we've overly focused on that, right. Hi, agree $300. Coach book bag and all? Yes, but you got a damn pencil in it. Right. And your braids are that$300 That could have went towards the tutor. Because they're not doing well with reading or math, like the actual performance. Like sometimes we have missed it on that side. So it's like, there is the code switching. And then there's also parts where we have to be accountable because we have so much potential. And I realized that historically speaking, whenever we've tried to convey that potential, whether it'd be own in stores and different things, we had a real threat, right? Like keh, keh, keh, could burn your stuff down back in the day, right? When we invaded stuff, they stole it and said that they invented it. I think that took a toll over time. But now it's like starting afresh. Let's show what with our giftings and our talents, because now we can safely do it and not have to worry about only being confined to oh, they look good. Oh, they sound like a Oh, is this Oh, what's that? I think we can control the narrative. There's a piece of that. Also, that's just making me think of I'm a what I like to call a serial interviewer. Even if I'm very comfortable at a job, I like to interview I like to meet people. And I'd like to just, you know, get those interviewing skills. There's nothing wrong with that. But I recently stopped saying things like, I'm an extremely hard worker. Now, do I know that I'm a hard worker? Yes. But I also realized that me mentioning that I'm an extremely hard worker, or you know, when they ask those generic interview questions, like, what's one good thing about you? Or what's one thing that you'd like to change or one area you'd like to do better in or whatever? I've kind of veered away from those. I'm an extremely hard worker type of conversations. Because yes, I know that I am a hard worker. But then I always ask myself, how much of me constantly mentioning how much of a hard worker I am, is that directly related to the fact that black people have been stereotyped as being lazy? Like, I started asking myself these things. How do I know I'm a hard worker? Absolutely. I mean, I've always been taught you want this money, you gotta get out there and work. And that's just it. However, for us, in particular, when we keep putting, oh, yeah, I'm a hard worker. I've worked overtime, and I work this out. No, no, no, I don't intend on working more to this, Susan. Right. Like, I want to come here in the same salary that Suzanne, I read this thing that said, I have the confidence of a mediocre white man. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I learned that based off of the stereotype that black women have to work harder to get more respect or, you know, any respect. Why is my ability to work hard? Why is that being questioned? Is it because I'm black? So now I have to bring this the fact that Oh, no, I'm not what like them. I'm a very hard worker, Yolanda. We have been lazy ever since we stopped working for free. Exactly. I am. That narrative that goes back to the famous African quote, until Lions have historians, Tales of the hunt will always glorify the hunter. The lazy narrative has come from the hunter Write a strong, that's embodying code switching, I don't want to come off as being like the group that you're racially profiling, I want to be different from them. And I want to be seen as being different from them so that way, me and my oppressor, let's just say, we can seem like we have more in common, the older I get, and even incorporate them less I code switch. That is why I coach people have their own businesses. When we have our own, we set the narrative of the culture. Okay, that's true. That's true. When you are the owner of the business, you say what is acceptable? And what is not you set the standard. Right now, right? Some of y'all have businesses, but we could work on a customer service a little bit. We can work on our customer service just a little bit, a lot less have businesses beyond the salon, beyond the restaurant. I'm glad you brought that up. Because this goes back into the development of the performance. Because I know as a community, because we've been through so much we celebrate the fact that hey, I just opened up the restaurant, Hey, I just opened up the business, right? Even though restaurants are the number one business to close within one year, statistically. That's right. So it's like, okay, how though, can we develop our knowledge point to number one, to know how to make sure that we know how to fully operate the business, and expand the business so that you go beyond being self employed to actually being able to employ other people? Right? And so that you get the business does not just Yes, you serve your community, but what about internationally, because there's money over there. And so it's like, if we can figure out the performance that is tied to making the business successful, rather than just getting it started. We do really great with starting, but do you know how to build it, grow it, make it sustained, create an economy out of it, create an economy for others out of it? And then if you decide because somebody looks at your stuff, and it's so great, and they're like, Oh, do you want to sell for something, something something billion a million, I mean, I'm gonna hold you to it, because you know, the, hey, that's a strategy to write. But sometimes I think we get so excited at the start, that there's certain pieces that we missed, like customer service, like the back end, right. And what happens is, is it makes it come down in terms of quality. And even though we have good food, or we have good services, there's certain parts we're missing that make it look worse than what it really is. We got to be careful about that. And the narrative be black folks always charge more money, we don't get competitive with our vendors, or black folks never have good customer service. Well, because very often, you know, we don't have a lot of money happening there. And I believe that anybody in business should have a coach. And I'm not saying that because I'm a coach, because I am a coach who has a coach, but you need somebody to be able to speak into your business, understand your vision and to be able to speak to your blind spots. Right? Problem is Brenda. I think so many people who are business leaders or business owners, you have a very specific personality type. Yeah, but that doesn't mean be unteachable. Yes. You teach, okay, be resilient. Don't let nobody tell you no, but have a teachable spirit. No one person can know everything to be able to run a business every day as a CEO, I can tell you this shit as ghetto one Yelp rating, but I have a passion for it. And don't ask me why I might be half crazy. It's right. To keep showing up to keep getting told no, but to have a vision in your mind. And I will give the Cliff's Notes version of this. When you're in business. There are multiple parts. So you got to be visionary. That's one role. And then there's also the role of the board. So this is like day to day operations. What are we doing making sure folks is getting paid and we are compliant. But then there's the actual work that needs to get done. Who gonna do that? Right. So when you're a small operation, and you got to do all three parts of your business show, ask him feel like you are bipolar, cray, cray schizophrenic, any of those diagnoses, so it's really ghetto. But my recommendation would be that number one, you get a coach number two, you get around some people who are in similar situations to help you figure out you know, what you should be focusing on in the everyday of we have 35 things that need to be focused on. And then the other thing that you need to do is be laser focused on your goals. And I say this to the people that I poached from Light is outside. I can go walk outside in the sunshine and get me some vitamin D. And it is good for you in these small doses. But you take that same light and you turn it into a laser and you can fix somebody's eyesight. We're trying to get you to be a laser. Yes. Oh, the barber shop where you cut in here selling damn tapes. Muslim oil, like no shirts. We got somebody selling damn boxes out in the front dogs just had a puppy. No. No German Shepherds for sale. Somebody like that in the hood? Absolutely do it to ourselves. Like when you do this sort of unserious behavior in your business people are going to treat you as unserious. But we call that hustle. No, baby. When it looks like I need a tetanus shot to get my head cut here. Let me see if my tetanus is up to date because I Windows got mold in it. So busy focusing on the hustle on that or get the dollar get dilate the small details This was kicking you in us that part. Right? Yeah, I've been in here to lock that I'm talking top notch, gorgeous dusty being down here in Atlanta. Now they got the hustle going, they got Oh girl over there with doing this, they got this. When I walk in, I don't feel like I got to be ready to rumble I walk in my bed, the way they got to set up is like, yeah, we got to hustle going. But we also pay attention to those small details are a well oiled machine. That helps you to expand, right, because if you are good, the demand is going to increase. Don't have the knowledge on how to produce the supply. To go along with it your business goes under. You need to have that well oiled machine, not just the front end is your stuff doing on the back end. And your relationships? Are you building relationships with more than just those that are in your circle more than those that look up to you because you're doing more than them on there. You know you did that I'm so inspired. That's great that you can have mentees, but you can't only be surrounded by those. Right? Candice, you need to be around people that are already doing what you're doing. And then you also need to be around people that have done it and then make matriculated out of it. Because there's a cap even to that. And when you're there, you're gonna be like, Well, I don't know what's next. So you need to already have those people in your close circle where you know, you can ask them ahead of time like, hey, my business is doing good. I need to know how to expand, how do I introduce new product? How do I do this? How do I do that? Who's the people I should talk to? Remember, Bishop used to say the church we used to go to if you are the person doing best in your circle, get a new circle? Yeah. Yeah, that's the wrong circle. And check your validation when you do it. I'm up here talking to you all on a podcast, I will have a very transparent moment because I need people to understand that things on the outside can look like they are going extremely well. I'm a person that speaks internationally. I got me a podcast, I got me a business. And it is very nice. The accolades and things that people say to me, since I see you you doing good. But I don't have a big head. You know why? Because I understand that literally, we doing this from day to day, and every day we are getting better. But like, don't be impressed as Brenda said, by your own shine, you got to really keep that as encouragement for the days where you're feeling low. Because I told you, being a CEO is ghetto, but it's necessary to keep you moving. I actually in my nightstand, I have a little basket of index cards, where I've written things that people say to me, so when I feel away when I'm having a bad day, I refer to my little cards again, I got Miss CANDACE I got Miss Brenda I got Mr. Zack telling me all these things about you know, when you're in corporate, let's just say particularly you the whole code switching thing, and then it's like alright, let me start creating my own type of space. Let me go into being an entrepreneur let me do this. Let me do that. Both of which are hard. I think that's one thing we need to make very, very ain't no easy. Life is hard. You got to look hard you got to be a corporate Are you gonna go entrepreneur, they both hard baby and look and you still have to adjust the way you deal with people. Because when you own your own because you're talking about trying to build businesses with other people. Yeah, pick your heart. Just remember, and I love me some Bishop TD Jakes but you know you shouldn't have been at P Diddy house here. I love you. Before he was swallow, everybody's talking about that was saying y'all should have seven streams of income. That's what they should have, whether you do or jobs, anything. And you need to be prepared for when life starts life to have multiple streams of income. Yeah, one stupid idea. To take a break, we'll be back. We'll be having more bike sales. Please, please continue to rock with friends, sister, cousin, colleague, auntie and split, bail yourself out and don't think you have something to be bailed out of after you listen, you will realize that you do. Now back to the show. Hey, we're back in the happy hour lounge. And we are talking about respectability, politics and code switching. So a lot of what did you want to say about Bishop continue the conversation there, Brendan made a really good point about Bishop having been that person everywhere he goes, right? I couldn't imagine that pressure. Every time I come out of the house, I can't comfortably be anywhere being myself. That essentially is us in the corporate world. Like we know when we go to corporate, we can't be our authentic selves, we have to be contextual. So I could not imagine being him where his faces I know my face to be Londa is large, because as soon as I clock out on me, I meet all day, every day, I couldn't imagine not being able to go to Kroger or Publix and not be me, right people like this. He has to be this even in doing the regular ordinary things. There's definitely a cost to everything that you do. So where does he get that relief? Yes, exactly. What corporate? Where do we get any relief? Because you can get as much as required that but I think sometimes we have to be careful because we strip the humanity out of a person. Yes. Yes. And use that alone, just like in corporate, they stripped the humanity out of us at times, where it's like, no, you have to be this robot, you have to be that person. Right. And really, when you think about it, sometimes you are doing what's required when you say too much is given much is required, right? Because if my character is good, or if my performance is still a one, I've done what's required, I'm not trying to hurt anybody. I'm not trying to, you know, cause harm or anything like that. But I still need a space where my humanity can still show up. I totally get that. But everybody knows back to the 90s. And I love Bishop, anybody have really nothing good to say about Diddy. He's been on some freak stuff back to the 90s. I understand the millionaires and billionaires were there. But there are also other millionaire and billionaire circles, no shade, no shade to that. And I also understand wanting to get an outlet and all like that. But at the end of the day, what you're saying is right, there are very few spaces and I in on TD Jakes level, there are very few spaces where Candice can be her authentic self completely. And not that I don't feel like I can be my authentic self, let me be very clear on that. It is just that you need to be in a safe place where people like love and trust you and get you to a certain point, or you just don't care and you're gonna do you like my girl, Marcia Fudge from HUD, when she was at that presidential news conferences said good morning, and nobody said nothing. And she was like I said, Good morning. Right, as you know, don't be like wait. I know that during those hours, where I'm at corporate, there's certain things that I need to adhere to, I understand that. It is what it is at this point. However, I am working on decreasing the spaces in my life where I cannot be authentic. Yolanda, if I have to be contextual, Yolanda during the day at work, that's cool. I can't be offensive Yolanda around these group of people. And when I go here, here, here, I'm not going to those places, anywhere where I have to go where I have to dumb down who I authentically end and I'm questioning whether I should be there. And code switching. I don't want to sound hypocritical, but I do understand that at work. Do you have to do what you have to do to an extent outside of work. I will not call switch outside of work. I don't think you should have to. This is a thing that we understand to be our truth today. How do we make it better for the next generation? Is it we make our own spaces? Is it through us just being there and being who we are? Do you think that will get people more accustomed to us? I think a little bit both Absolutely. creating our own spaces. I That, to me is a must. Zach was say, you know, I think it's a little bit of both, because there's a part of it that Code switching is gonna just be code switching. You know, depending on where you work at, depending on what level of the playing field you're on Code switching is going to exist. But I think then you got to work your way up to getting into your own space. Because most of the time as African American people, we don't got access, like our counterparts to just go out and start a business at 21. You know, that's, like, sort of working through your own identity and being confident in your identity one starting there, but then also being able to know how to merge the two, like, when do I turn this off? When do I turn this on? But I know it's still embodiment of my full identity. Hopefully, the next generation with us doing our thing we're out here working, we will be able to be the parents that give their kids a couple $1,000 to start a business. So yesterday, this is crazy. The number one business with the highest success rate is a laundry mat. I'm about to open up me a laundry mat. laundromats and gas stations, I think, no it was like it used to be gas station wasn't gas stations, vending machines, that's what it was laundry mats, vending machines, and last mile delivery, basically picking up at Amazon hub and doing that last mile delivery. I'm like yo up out to get me a vending machine. I don't even drink Coke, but I can get me some machines. They got vending machines for lots of things now nails, they got vending machines. Machine ain't even that hard to buy, like you could buy a brand new one for seven grand. Yep, filming airports and stuff like that. I've been seeing a lot of makeup, all types of stuff in these vending machines it seem at the airports. Yeah, this is where I think that this thought process like what we're doing right now. This is where you start tapping into your authenticity. And this is what offsets any damage from code switching. Because I feel like when you talk about the next generation, one of the things that we have to do is we have to get them to understand there is more in you, you have ideas that you need to learn how to bring the past. And as this generation we are going to show you that your authenticity runs deeper than just how you look and even how you sell. Because you sound how you sound. But I want you to impact when you show up. I want you to be able to say you know what, Mom, I do want to open up a vending machine. But I want to sell this and it's creative, right? So that way you can know, oh, my authentic self. I'm very creative. I'm very innovative. I'm very this I'm very that so now we've extended your authenticity to more than just your close to more than just how you sound because now you know when you show up, whether it be corporate, or whether I'm hiring you. Now if I at we got a certain standard, I ain't gonna hold you we got a standard right? Not the wild wild west. Okay, but I want to see who you are. I want to see your talent. I want to see you innovate this process. Maybe I was doing that the old fuddy duddy old timey way, show me something new. And I want to be able to understand that this is what I do. I'm great with systems. I'm great. We work in processes. You know what I do like hiking, I've never been fishing before. But I like being by the water, right? Like, let's deepen our understanding of authenticity. And that sometimes can help offset some of the damage that has been incurred, at least within our generation from codes within but then it also allows us to create a new standard. We're not necessarily requiring code switching, but we're also redefining the narrative and we're getting you to tap into that authentic self that you really are. And we're going to fast track it so you don't take 40 years like it took us literally literally I love that so basically instead of tapping into your creative juices to be right on the line of the dress code at corporate use that to make you some money can I get through it? I'm getting like listen, please don't make them have to send me to black person to go speak to you about inappropriateness at work. That's the worst. I don't want to know I've never been in that situation. And I'm so thank you, girl. They were sent me like I was the lady from airplane. Remember that see what she was like? I speak jive. Speak negro. Yeah. Auntie Maxine. Come here. No good damn how well, you're a post. You know, you've been trained to act. Like you've asked them since I've been here. That amazing conversation. All right, so we're gonna wrap it up right here. To quote, switch or not to code switch, I'm going to let everybody weigh in one last time. I will say I think code switching has its place. And understand that every environment, I think is not for you. I think that's something we talked about, kind of brushed over. But we didn't say it explicitly. Just because your resume meets the qualifications or your business can do the work, it doesn't mean that that place aligned with who you are. And always my litmus test honestly kind of goes back to dating, because that's something that everybody is familiar with. Just because you meet a person, and they meet your criteria doesn't mean that somebody you want to spend your whole life with, it's really the same thing with your career, or your business. And people don't think about it that way. Because unfortunately, you know, you spend more time at work than you do at home. So those elections are really important. And so I think you should be mindful of it. That's my two cents that I would say when it comes to code switching, need to do it or not do it be strategic, if you are going to do it, especially if you're very early career, you are trying to get your foot in the door, and know the environment is not the best, but you need something on the resume. But at the same time, if I were to say, Okay, what's a different option? I would more so say like, your natural you isn't necessarily disrespectful, right? So be a good human, show up with some decorum, right? Because showing up with decorum doesn't mean your code switching, right. And so you know, that line of delineation. Now, if it's to the point where you know, it's taking you away from your core, have a strategy. Get ahead, get that bread, then leave that part, and then go somewhere else, where you can be somewhere where you can be more of that authentic you and I'm not just talking about just outer, right, but until then handle your business until you can work your way out of it. Yeah, you definitely have to, I think use code switching to be your vantage, where you also need to be completely aware that it can't be a disadvantage, and know when to call your therapist when it becomes a disadvantage to that part. Because it can be a benefit, but it can also be literally the detriment of our black and brown people. I agree that I couldn't said it better, that I think is perfect. I think to summarize as just awareness, being self aware, being aware of your situation, being aware of your goal to what Candice and Brenda were saying just they said use what you got to get where you need to be. Do what you got to do. Be aware also of self to where if it starts to take a toll on yourself, hold on this something is a little off with me. I am a I don't want to say a supporter. But I agree with it. I mean, given the space for code switching, but awareness is key to make sure that you do stay true to yourself. Especially for those getting their foot in the door early corporate that you know 1819 trying to get out here dealing College, whatever it may be. That's a very hard time for a lot of people because you know, you're still young, you're still figuring yourself out. So that's the whole self awareness thing. I think that's something that we need to make sure our younger generation understands what self awareness is, so that way they can operate overall better, so absolutely. And just on Auntie No, I also am not hiring you if you don't know enough to brush your hair. But I love you though. This has been an amazing episode, by the way. I want to thank my amazing guests. Zach Adams, Dr. Brenda Carter and Yolanda gore. Yeah, I want to tell people where to get you on socials. Absolutely hit me up on LinkedIn or go to Dr. Brenda l carter.com. I can also be found on LinkedIn under Yolanda gore. Yeah, I think my LinkedIn is still under Terry Johnson but um, they're cool underscores that thank you all so much for listening. I love you and I mean it peace Wasn't that a great interview? Hold up before you grab your hat and head out. Make sure you make your way to facebook and join the bail yourself out pod Facebook group. That's where you'll find your virtual co workers luxuriating and chatting. Thank you so much for listening and if you enjoy the show, please leave a review. That's how we keep the lights on. If you're on social media, follow your girl Candice was a que Whitaker and you know what I love to hear from you with that? I love you and I mean it because there are people who hate in the world for no reason I choose to love for no reason. I believe that the great Martin Luther King Jr. said hate is too great a burden to bear so I choose to love He shall we