Resilient Faith Breaking the Imposter Cycle

Kandice Whitaker hosts the "Bail Yourself Out Happy Hour Podcast," focusing on personal and career growth. She introduces Reverend Hermia Chicago Whitak, who discusses her journey with imposter syndrome, particularly in her legal career and as a former executive pastor. They explore the impact of systemic racism and the importance of mentorship. Reverend Mia emphasizes the need for self-acceptance and community support, highlighting her experiences with imposter syndrome and the challenges of balancing multiple roles. They also discuss the role of faith and the black church in providing solace and community. The conversation underscores the importance of finding fulfillment in one's work and the resilience required to navigate professional and personal challenges.

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Transcript

0:00  
Kandice, welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour Podcast, where each week we'll help you navigate the corporate jungle. Here's your host, Kandice Whitaker,

0:12  
welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast, friends. Here we focus on personal growth, career growth and entrepreneurship, our family, who are your virtual coworkers, are dedicated to providing you with the tools and insights to turn your dreams into reality and help you get your money up. In each episode, we'll explore strategies rooted in my framework, the bail method of resilience, designed to guide you in conquering challenges and thrive. I'm your host, Kandice Whitaker, and at the age of 21 I was a determined young mother of two who wanted to ensure my best possible life and defy the odds. So I took steps towards achieving the life I desire. I got my master's degree. Then I was a sought after consultant, which led me to starting my own company. I have a passion for helping people live their life to the fullest through resilience, using the bail yourself out approach. So I'm happy you're here. Kick off your shoes and relax your feet. Fill up your favorite drink, because the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast is about to start now. Hey, y'all, Hey, welcome to the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast, and in today's lounge, we have Reverend Hermia Chicago whitak, welcome to the lounge, fam. Hey,

1:36  
thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so pleased and humbled and happy and excited and scared to be here.

1:44  
Oh my goodness, don't be scared. We are very casual here. I will say this friends who are listening in the lounge. This is Reverend Mia's first pod. So we need some kind of sound effect for first solo pod. Shout out to Reverend mark. We know that you're listening, and we love you. We gotta have you on another pot. But this one is specifically for my ladies. Kick off your shoes and relax your feet. That we're here today is because Mother's Day. I heard her give this amazing sermon on how this woman here I'm talking to who, by the way, in her own right, is a bad chick. Y'all, I mean, for real, we talking degreed up, right? Former lawyer, executive pastor, all of these things, just all around dope. And she was talking about she was dealing with imposter syndrome. And I was like, Okay, wow. First of all, I understood, when you said it, the level of transparency that it took to be able to even say that in front of people, especially church people, because they'd be mad judgy. But I go to church, and I love y'all but, but I said what? I said, y'all be mad judgy. So the level of transparency of being able to say that, and I know that you meant it, I felt that in my Sean and I, you know, as folks say, it's a person who's worn so many hats. How have you managed to balance those roles while dealing with imposter syndrome? I

3:09  
think primarily we handle this by always. I mean, I've always been I was a daddy's girl. I was the baby of the family. I always wanted to do the my best, whatever I was given. I grew up in the family like you give it your best. You do your absolute best, whatever your assignment is. So I think I never realized that I suffered from that, or that I felt like I was an imposter, really, until I got to Northrop Grumman, when I was serving as a senior counsel. You know, you just do it. You do what you gotta do. I remember one summer waking up and realizing, wow, where did the fun part of me go? I was so busy finishing law school and working and teaching for a while in law school that I said, Where did my fun side go? Where did my other the great part of me go, and I had to find my happiness again. So I I just think we wear the hats as women. We all do. I'm not unusual. We all, you know, we mother, we're career women, caregivers. Some of us, we just do what we have to do and be the best at it. So, you know, you put that on when that hat gets too tight, or when you need to take it off. You take it off, put on the other hat. So, you know, we just put on that we need to wear. Sometimes they pile up, though.

4:33  
Well, let me ask you something, because you had a whole bunch of gems in there right when you were in that season of feeling like you were an imposter of sorts. Did you feel like you had to be a certain thing in a certain place? You know what I mean? Like, you know, there was this poem we wear the mask. I'm at work, I'm the corporate person. I'm at home, I'm trying to be perfect, Mommy. Like, did you feel. Feel that

5:00  
when I first really felt that was when I went to law school. I'm sitting in this class, antonym Scalia, former Supreme Court justice, Supreme Court Justice, Anthony, yes, he was my Antonin. Scalia. Antonin, yes, he was my contracts teacher. And I remember trying out for the Rockefeller choir at University of Chicago because I needed to sing. That was how I, you know, as I used the other part of my brain, we had to sing with the choir. And he said he was, he was a tenor. He was a very good tenor singer. He loved opera. And I remember him saying to me the next day in contract class. How did you have time to sing in the Rockefeller choir? Well, I know. And then rode me, and I was only person got called on for the rest of the class. So I think that's the first time I said, Do you really belong here? And I remember thinking to myself as I was sitting in class, somebody is going to come and tap me on my shoulder and say, excuse me, you're not supposed to be in this class. So those two incidents made me first feel like, was I really supposed to be here? Did I really score what I needed to score on the LSAT so that I could get in here? Why did they let me in? Was it a mistake somebody going to come and take my seat and tell me, you not? And it was always in the back of my mind. And when I did well, it would blow my mind. I was like, I really did do that. I really could score that well. I really was ordered by various law firms and that, you know, in the summer of seasons. But it took me a while. It took me a while to get there, but that's the first time I literally remember. But then as I think back to my very first grade experience where this was Caucasian woman, I'm six years old, she would take me out in the hallway and she would slap me in my face. Yeah, every I don't know if it was every day, but I know it was more often than not. I always got A's on everything. I did not get anything other than a stellar report card and conduct. So you can only imagine she just did not like she said. I rolled my eyes at her. I'm scared of death. I probably was rolling my eyes after a while, scared she was going to come get me again. So that's when I first started to think somebody didn't like me, but to feel like I was masquerading. That really came in law school. As I look back now, I realize it started way back with a racist teacher who traumatized me as a six year old. What can I think that's

7:44  
so dangerous, that is so dangerous, and how many of our children are in classrooms with teachers that are racist? I remember in the sixth grade, I had a teacher I should call her name. I remember her saying to my dad after parent teacher conference, and he came home to me, and I was confused. He said, I don't like the way she pushes her weight around. And I was like, first of all, I didn't even know what that meant. Yeah,

8:11  
it meant she don't take no stuff off of me

8:15  
or anybody else. It's like, so me just standing in my skin of being a leader. She didn't like me, and it offended her.

8:23  
There you go. It offended her sense of who you were, what you were supposed to be, who you were supposed to be, how you were supposed to act. That's what it got to her.

8:31  
And you know, I think for me, it transformed my thinking into, well, there are decent people. And then there are those people who I don't know, they need to be ignored. They're ridiculous.

8:46  
Yeah, I think when you get into the professional world, and you know, you're a professional as well, you've been in corporate America, you know how many people can be and so

8:54  
that's a great point. Translate Kandice 12 into Kandice 25 and I was the youngest in a room of middle aged Caucasians. I was the youngest and the only black one, and they didn't like me. They were mean to me for no reason, but I didn't care. I just ignored them, and

9:18  
I applaud you. Everybody is not equipped to do that, or doesn't have the self assurance to do that. I remember in Los Angeles, I did a it's funny. We talk about the fact that this is my first podcast where someone interviewed me. But what I did, I interviewed first black women in law, and I named it standing toe to toe with the wing tips, because that's how we felt that we were the only black woman. I was at a majority law firm, I think there were. There were only seven African Americans in my law school class out of 165 students. So we always felt that we were the only ones there. Everybody was looking at us. Everybody expected us to do well and and quite frankly, it wasn't a very comforting place. It wasn't some place where you really had a whole lot of fun, but you always felt hunted. In fact, when I left the law firm, somebody told me that hunted look in your eyes anymore, because you were always looking over your shoulder, expecting to be judged, expecting to be criticized, not speaking up when you knew, knew the answer. You knew the answer, but somebody else in the class made it because you were too afraid to speak up, which is why I really like that woman that I talked about in that sermon, the woman who was willing, she was, she knew she wasn't a do, but for Jesus to say to her, first of all, say nothing to her, and then say, you know, you know that I'm supposed to give this, that what I have is for children of Israel. It's for the Jews. It's not for you. And she said, Yeah, but you know, I'll take the crumbs. And so

10:59  
that's my kind of chick, though, for real.

11:01  
Oh yeah, that passage used to make me mad. The parents said, No, that's what we all we, as black women, have to be. We gotta grab those problems and say, you know, and that's why you have to take Jesus blessing, because even me, even you, with you, when you accept that about yourself, that even God's blessings, I'll take the un COVID, because even I'll be satisfied, I'll be alright, I'll be good. I love that. I love that.

11:35  
So one of the things that you mentioned before was key to me, one of the things that we don't talk about when we encourage young folks to get an education, go out and be in these spaces, we don't tell them that, okay, there's going to be a certain number of people that you've known your whole entire life. You're not going to have anything in common with them anymore. That's right, there's that part, because everything you talk about you going to sound like you bragging. Mm hmm. Every time you're trying to relate to them, they register in a zero because they have no reference for this. And then there's going to be that certain segment of people in that place, whatever that place is, that really don't want you there, and they're going to make it their business, that you know, and they don't treat you like that.

12:25  
Oh, yeah, yep, yep. And that was hard. That was hard for me. It was hard

12:30  
talk about that we need to, and

12:33  
that's because we don't have enough mentors in that space who can pull your coat and say, baby, let me tell you what the real deal is. This is why I loved my you never met her, but my mother in law, Evelyn whitak. She was a little 98 pound pistol. Oh yeah, she was tiny, but she had made it in corporate America. And so when Pastor Mark asked her to come live with her second husband, who passed away. I didn't know what a blessing that was to have somebody in my household who understood, now, I love my mother understand I loved her dealing, but she didn't have that experience. She couldn't tell me what it was going to be like, but she could tell me, and did pull my coat and said, you can expect this, and you gotta speak up for yourself. I remember when I wanted to first cut my hair short, and I used to talk about how cute somebody's short haircut was. And we'd sit at annual conferences, and I'd see somebody with a short haircut, and I'd say, Oh, she said, I want to hear you talk about one more time. I don't want to hear it again. Say that, but you don't cut your hair. Don't worry about what your husband say. It's your hair period. Cut it if you want to cut period. So then the next when I cut it, I said I called, I called Pastor Mark, and I told him I was coming. She said, what you call him for? You shouldn't have said nothing. But you need somebody who can kind of give you the ropes. And so we need more women who are in position, and I think the first generation of women who were in that position were afraid to maybe pull you along, for fear that everybody would expect you to do that. I had some mentors. I won't mention their names, because some of them were not that great. But I had a couple of women who were ahead of me. They said to me in the law firm, Mia, you gotta want it. You had to want to make partner with your whole heart. I don't think I did want to make partner with my whole heart. I looked at at the lifestyle that those who made partner had and decided, maybe not. Maybe that's not where God preparing me for, positioning me for I just say you need more women who will be able to tell you you gotta, first of all, secure your faith. You gotta secure your faith. You gotta believe in God. You gotta believe in God. That's why I love that song. Even me do. Because it really speaks to me. It was always my father's favorite hymn, and it was beautiful. But the words showers of blessing you dropping on everybody else, but you have some even from me. Just let it drop it too, fall on me, and Jesus will do that. That's why I love about

15:19  
that. One of the things that you mentioned that was amazing for me. So you didn't even know this. This podcast space is for people who are corporate renegades, like you, like me, meaning that we ain't really trying to get partner, we ain't trying to get C suite. We are trying to live our life on our own terms. That's not for everybody, and they're not conversations that are being had. And for some reason, some folks seem to think, if you don't, aspire to the C suite where people are calling you while you sitting on the beach in Puerto Rico, don't call me. I'm dead. Don't call me,

15:57  
at least to you. I'm

15:59  
dead to you, that's exactly right. There's something wrong with you, and I think that's fundamentally false. And you know, when you look at the structure of most organizations, we can't be at the top, you going to be sorely disappointed, yeah, uh, everybody

16:13  
is not going to get there, and they're just as fine where they are. So God, worked it out that I started in the board of examiners, finally felt called. In fact, it was in I was in India when I decided to accept my call. I was doing liturgical dance in Chennai, India, when I accepted my call, and I came back, still thought I was going to stay at, you know, big defense contractor doing government contract work. And that work, you know, it blew some people's hair back, but it didn't blow mine back. Now, I love working with clients, because I like to work with people, but it didn't fulfill me so and when I found myself driving to work, being so tired when I got there, even though I'd gotten a full eight hours of sleep, sleep having to roll back my seat and say, If I can just sleep for 30 minutes before I have to go in that door. And I realized that was not what I needed to be. I didn't need no ma'am, Senior Vice President, that was not what God was calling me to be. And so yes, I'm I don't Renegade, run away, whatever you want to call it. I do know I'm not a prodigal son or daughter, because ain't calling me back there. I

17:22  
absolutely love that. And you also touched on something that I tell people I coach all the time, if something drains your energy, that is an indication that it's not for you.

17:32  
That's right. That's exactly right. One of my sons who wants to be a recording artist, a rap artist, and I said, I can't tell you how to do that, but I used to tell the partners at the law firm, if I could sing and dance for a living, I would have never gone to law school. This pays my bill. This, you know, bills. But where I got my fulfillment was on the weekends, when I was in the liturgical dance team, or I was singing in the I used to sing every Sunday, and I couldn't imagine Sunday when I wasn't singing. I never sat in the pulpit before, never because I was in the choir. You know, I was in the praise team. That's where, that's where my gift I felt, my gifts were. That's where I got fit. There have been times at Bible study Kandice that Carlton will come in and start playing or singing, you know, a song while we're and I'll just start dancing, because that to flow with your whole body. I think you you probably have seen me in the pulpit. I'm one of those who cannot stay still. I'm always, I'm always coming up with some movement, because I gotta sing. I gotta sing with everything. I gotta pray everything. So, you know,

18:47  
put your back in it.

18:52  
That's it. All right.

18:53  
I am loving this conversation. I'm gonna put a paper clip in it right here. We're gonna take a short break, and when we come back, we are gonna give some advice for people who feel like they are struggling with imposter syndrome. We'll be back. Y'all feeling stuck

19:06  
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19:14  
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19:22  
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19:26  
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19:47  
Hey, y'all Hey, welcome back to the bail yourself out Happy Hour lounge. We are chilling today with my pastor. I can't say my girl, that didn't feel right, that's okay, Reverend, Mia and. And we have had a wonderful discussion so far about dealing with imposter syndrome, being the first in your family to work in corporate and how that can really mess with you for real. You know,

20:13  
when you're the first at anything in your family, you don't have anybody to follow after. It's interesting because I have two brothers that were medical doctors, but nobody in my family was a lawyer, so I really didn't know what it's going to be like. And I can remember my father saying, I can understand why they pay your brothers so much, but I don't understand why they would pay you that much. Inspire your dad, but not Yeah, but now you my dad was born in 1906

20:41  
Okay, okay, alright, alright. I

20:44  
was 11, so I loved him anyway. But I also thought I said, Dad, you think I'm going to come back here and live when I after I get out of school, I did not go to get my Mrs. From college. I really, I went to get a degree, and I'm going to go get another degree, and I'm going to be on my own and I'm going to be just fine, just fine. Wait

21:06  
a minute for those of y'all listening who didn't know what a Mrs. Was, because I didn't know what that junk for the longest time was, women who go to college to get married already,

21:15  
that's the degree you get to find a husband. And I must say, though, when I was 26 I had just graduated from law school. I mean, I thought I was hot, you know, I was fine. It was good.

21:29  
I thought you was I introduced

21:32  
at my my niece got married. She was 22 Remember, I told you, I have way older brothers at 22 she was getting married. I was 26 so of course, I was at her wedding over her myself being introduced as, Oh yeah, that's his youngest sister. She never married, never.

21:52  
I'm like, I'm 26 Brenda, hit you with the spinster at 26

21:59  
henster at 26 and I'm thinking, you know, I had just arrived. I had just started my corporate law position, and I'm ready to go. Just got admitted to the bar. Oh, I was and I was expensive.

22:13  
No, you were out here being a Maverick and them folks, you knew they wasn't ready for you, point blank, period. Yeah, well,

22:21  
I found out that, but a lot of bumps and scrapes along the way before I realized that I was okay if I didn't make part I was okay if, I mean, I taught law school for a while. I taught at UCLA law school, and I thought that maybe I was going to be get on a tenure track, but I realized I didn't enjoy research writing if I didn't have a real client that I was if I wasn't really saw. I mean, I, you know, God bless them, they write those treatises that sit on a shelf and collect dust. But I could, oh Lord, I indicted the whole legal Law School professor, but anyway, I couldn't be the professor who just pontificated on theory. I needed to take that theory and apply it. And so it was okay. And I, you know, I interviewed for a tenure track position and ultimately came to that conclusion that's not for me. So I think the biggest thing is to find out what I talked about blowing your hair back, what really does blow your hair back, I started talking about my son, because we know that a lot of the message in his rap is really his sermon, that he just hasn't decided to preach yet.

23:34  
But I promise you, every preacher think people who are articulate are preachers. Do you know how many times I've heard this in my life? No,

23:42  
he has messages in his rap, though it's the message that I'm getting at I told him. I said, you know, don't come down on your dad for being a preacher, because he is doing what he you don't have to pay him to do it. He would do it anyway. I mean, he had to make a living. But if you can find a job that fulfills your purpose, or a work doesn't have to be quote, unquote job. You don't have to work for somebody else, but you find something that you do, that you would do it even if you didn't get paid to do it, if you just got enough to take care of business, but you still do it. You do it because you love it. That's a gift. Everybody doesn't have a job or work, they go to because they've been called to do it in their soul, they know this is what God put me on the earth to do. This is where I feel important. This is

24:32  
where God rare. It's very rare. It's

24:35  
very rare. It's very rare. So I encourage anybody, if you don't find it in what you need to make your living, then find out what it is in life that makes life for you, if it's singing, if it's dancing, if it's writing poetry, well, I'm into the arts, so that's what I think.

24:56  
I get that though, if it's creating,

24:58  
I think everybody. Have a creative part of their being.

25:02  
I agree with that. You know, how we met and how, probably most people who knew me in the beginning of my life was as a singer, right? But then for a long time, I walked away and I put that down, and I turned the page and I did other things. But what happened to me is, because God made me a singer who can do other things. Yes, it was a part of me that wasn't happy, and I couldn't figure out what it was until I went back to the basics.

25:30  
And that's right, you've got to do what gives you joy. You gotta find it somewhere. And if you find it in the work that you do, you've been doubly blessed. You've been doubly blessed.

25:42  
Well, part of the reason I walked away is because, you know, I went to school for music. I went to a music conservatory undergrad, and being a professional musician, I was like, I don't want to do this. I gotta work when everybody else is off. I work when everybody else is off, on Friday nights and Saturdays. And I'm a singer, so I can't control if I have a cold, and then I'm not feeling good, and then my backup comes and sings one night for me, and they like her better, and then I'm fired. That's too much stress.

26:15  
I can't do this,

26:18  
because I'm a thinker, and I think, right? And then when I found out, well, wait a second, the people in the chorus at the Metropolitan Opera only get paid $80,000 a year. You can't even afford to live in New York, $80,000 a year. What you going to have six roommates and one bathroom? I was like, oh, no, I'm bougie. This is not my lifestyle.

26:43  
And you found out you had some other gifts that you could use that part,

26:47  
that part, yeah. So I was like, Alright, what else am I good at? And then, instead of getting a masters of music, I got an MBA, and that's how that paradigm shift started. But it's always part of me. I believe it'll always be part of me. You. It's just not something that you put down. But I have a question. Uh

27:05  
oh,

27:06  
I have a question for you. As the most Christian person I've had on this podcast thus far, we being real good because you hear Reverend me about you know, thank you. Thank you. I found right when you are a person who leads a life that's different, because I am a person who has a different life, right? I'm a business owner. I have a podcast. I also, you know, do some volunteering and teaching, and I sing. I do a lot of different things. People who know me, even if they love me, the strangest conversations with people because they don't know how to talk to me, and then they end up saying stupid crap. You just doing stuff like, what? So? What are you doing now, that kind of stuff. How would a person like me, a person like our audience, who are multi talented individuals. You do stuff, you do a lot of things. I'm trying to just fully be me and everybody around me. I want you to fully be you. That's not in a category. How do you respond to people who just don't get that we say, how

28:18  
you know? Do you get any sleep at night, just living your best life. You know, I think, God, you may have some gifts for different seasons. Like i i look back when I was, you know, in California, and my first lady like responsibility. Then, like I said, I sang every day, every week in the course, I was a COO for our nonprofit organization. I was the one who worked with our treasurer to put together the financials for our quarterly meetings. I might dance with the dance team at the beginning, right then run upstairs and make sure the checks got processed for the guest speaker. I guess it just kept it keeps me alive. It's what keeps you vibrant. It's what keeps you from feeling old. It amazes me to this day. I mean, I'm 69, years old. A lot of people say I should be not aware what Pastor is 70. I'm 60. I always say I'm his child bride. That's just to get at him. But you know, I don't feel like I was like, I'm just do whatever I can do while God gives me the the strength and the ability to do it. Imma do it all. And I'm like, Well, why not do it? That's right now, if I can do it, if God gives me the the the energy and the gifting to do it, do as much as you can do, do it all. If you can, you have different gifts for different seasons in your life. I didn't know that I could produce a dance opera. I did. God just gave me the gifting to. Do it and put people in my life who allowed me to do it. Our supervisor told me at the time, Reverend Cecilia Williams Bryant said, we going to have a women's missionary program. I was first vice president of WMS in Southern California, and we are going to dance everything. What are we danced the procession. We danced the offering we did. It was great. It was wonderful. And somehow God put the people in in place to help me do what I had to do. So I guess what I would say to people is, anybody, it's not that I'm so special. It's just that I allowed God to give me the the gifts to be special. And that part, I'm not so special even me. Remember I said, let some drops fall let some drops fall on you. Your gift will make room for you. God has showers of blessings that he's scattering full and free. Come on, let some drops fall on you and find out that there's some gifts that you got you you didn't even know. That's why I always tell people, try singing. That's what's open. We might not put you next to a microphone, but eventually some of that will be if you can talk about you can sing, if you can walk, you can dance, right? African products, absolutely,

absolutely that I do believe that.

31:19  
One thing that I believe, is that when you are given a dream, a gifting, something you're good at, it is your responsibility to use it and to do it, not to make people understand, I've kind of given up on, that they're not going to get it and it's okay. God

31:38  
gave me this. It's my responsibility. I used to tell people, there was young adults that used to sing next to me in the praise team, and they're like, sometimes I just don't feel like it. I'm like, feel I never thought about what I felt like it's giving me this gift. How could I dare walk in here and not give my gift the best that I got? How can I dare do that. It never occurred to me to think about what I felt like, plus, I got the blessing because I felt good doing it. It was never work to me, going to require that's

32:09  
a form of worship. That's a form of worship, giving your gift back to the Creator is a form of worship that's right in and of itself. So it's

32:17  
not work. It's worship. I love it. I love it. I

32:22  
never think about singing as work, and I probably, if I ever really thought about it, no, I don't want to go to choir rehearsal after sitting in meetings all day, but I know how I feel when I'm done. I could run to my car. Yeah, the energy that I get. And so that's the opposite. If something gives you energy. That's something you supposed to do. Yeah, that's why I believe that before Exactly. Well, I'm gonna take a break right here, and when we come back, we're gonna talk about this article from NIH about imposter syndrome, and then talk about some future legacy. We'll be back. Okay,

33:02  
join us on Fridays in June and December for real talk, deep dives and a splash of inspiration. Whether you're looking to level up, break free from the grind or just need a good laugh, this is the place for you. So grab your drink. Tune in, and let's get to it.

33:19  
You're listening to the Kandice Whitaker on the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast,

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welcome back to the bail yourself out Happy Hour podcast, friends and today in our lounge, I am chilling with the MIA Chicago whitak, and we've had a wonderful conversation about imposter syndrome and finding your path In life and all the things that are super important. So aside from that sermon that you had back in Mother's Day, there was an article released by the NIH, interestingly enough, related to imposter syndrome. And so I'm going to give some highlights for the folks who were listening so they can know we were talking about so here are the most commonly reported characteristics of imposter syndrome. It's a behavioral health phenomenon described as self doubt of intellect, skill or accomplishments among highly achieving individuals, that part was crazy to me. Highly achieving individuals, these individuals cannot internalize their success and subsequently experience pervasive feelings of self doubt, anxiety, depression and apprehension of being exposed as a fraud Selah, in some

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ways, that whole definition, it actually freed me up. And I said, Oh, I wouldn't have it if I wasn't highly intelligent.

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Come on, get free.

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Having self doubt, having anxiety. I did go through a couple years of depression. And, you know, I had treatment for it, as I doubted myself. I never thought I was that smart, but, you know, I was at the College Prep High School. You know, by the time I finished my first semester at Northwestern, I was a sophomore, so I was highly intelligent, but just that definition gave me some reassurance, okay, I wouldn't have this if I wasn't highly intelligent. Why do I doubt myself? It's because of the bumps and for me and traumas I had growing up as a black kid and as a black woman. Speak on it. That's why. So you didn't give everything about the article, but so I'll tell you what, as I told you before, what stood out for me was that I don't blame myself for having imposter syndrome because I didn't do it to myself. It's something that happened to me, the the trauma, the hurt being slapped in the face as a little girl being told I wasn't good enough. I was also a chubby kid. So you know, having the the boys in elementary school say, cute face, but, you know, and then, you know, when I got and came back as college, you know, now they want,

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come on thick. Come on thick.

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I'm like, this has always been, this has always been me. So I didn't do it to myself, though I don't blame myself for having had imposter syndrome. I recognize it. It's from the systematic racism and sometimes intentional racism that we as women have experienced so in many ways. The article was interesting. They said, Stop telling you know black women that they have imposter syndrome. No, for me, I needed to hear that. I needed to understand why I was going through that stuff and understand what my fault i Yes, I do need to heal myself, but we I also need to do something about healing those systems and the and getting those people out of the access to hurt me and to hurt other children as they're growing up. It was the

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word right there. I mean, I'll definitely attach it to the pod. I struggle with imposter syndrome, or specifically the term imposter syndrome, because what you've said really resonates with me. I always felt like imposter syndrome was a logical response to how women of color are treated in white spaces in the United States, I'm not going to call them majority because they're not majority in the world, right? They're just majority in the US. We're majority in the world. I mean, I mean, I mean, let's just call this by a proper name, the global majority the season diaspora. But I've experienced, and I know I'm not the only one, some really toxic environments, having to prove yourself over and over again, having your expertise doubted, being undermined, being straight up lied on, surprising people

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when you're in the room,

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okay, okay. And you talked about, you know, the generation before us. And I found in my journey, and I don't know everything, but I know some stuff, I found that there were two types of black folks before my generation, right? Because it wasn't a whole lot of us. There was the kind who were cool, but quiet about it. They were cool, but they were quiet about it. And then you had Clarence Thomas, yeah, black on outside, white on inside, right? They going to cut you talk about them. White supremacy, Baby. Baby. And I could tell you the stories, and you really have to know one of my early mentors, who was a Jewish man. Shout out to Doctor Zalman, I love you, man. He told me one of the things that you need to do when you go into a new space is determine who's who in the zoo, and you just spent a whole lot of time looking and watching, okay? And I've actually gotten to the point where I've seen so many kind of work persona types I can categorize them. Oh, that's this one. Oh, that's this one. You know, the one that's overly friendly that starts asking you a lot of personal questions. Oh, that's the office busy body. Yep,

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yep,

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yep, tell them nothing.

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I won't say make up something, because whatever it is, it'll be all over the office, all over you better not make it

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up. Girl, talk about what you're watching on TV. That's it. The weather. Oh, it's hot. The parking lot was crazy this morning. Did you notice they ran through the toilet paper like anything but anything personal. But my point is that, you know, there are so few black mentors, right? Like, shout out to the d9 I know y'all are listening. I'm hood by hood. I went to a white college. Sorry, y'all, I didn't pledge. But those give us. The opportunity to be around like, like minded individuals. But when you ascend to certain ranks in corporate space, there are so few black people. You ain't really looking for no colors. You just like anybody

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who will be nice to me, genuine to you. That

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part, that part, I struggle with the idea of imposter syndrome, because I feel like having a label for it is important. You should be able to call a thing a thing. It needs a container. We need to be able to identify Legion so we can cast

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it out, wrap it up, tie with a bow, put it on the shelf. That's

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right, but the other side of me says the anxiety that is a logical response to not knowing what the heck you are walking into, for depression, period, depression that is also a logical response for losing community, because the people you know, they don't understand you, the people you around, they don't care to understand you. It's that's a hard road.

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And let me just say this for the black church, for all those intellectuals who think that the black church is you need the black church, because, yeah, we know the corporate spaces you and this is what you need, some place to go and just be in the African diaspora. Just be there. I needed that if I didn't have church on the weekend, like when Antoinette Scalia, Antonin Scalia told me, what was I doing, trying to try out for the Rockefeller choir, telling me, right then I wasn't good enough to be another Rockefeller choir. Understand that even though I could cite me study music, I did play piano, I could but what did I do? I was so glad to be in a little black Baptist Church, and I said, forget the Rockefeller choir. I'm going where I'm going to be comfortable and I can sing the songs that soothe my soul and not worry about whether I hit the right pitch and had the right intonation or what or so pianistic more, I was fourth. Whatever it was, I could just sing. I could just sang

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child. That's exhausting, too. That's part of the reason why I didn't sing. It was like y'all have vocal trained me into not liking this. Because when you are trained to hear every imperfection is not fun anymore. It's stressful, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I think we need to come, have you come back and have a whole another episode. And we do need to talk about church. But, you know, Pastor, we going to keep it 101 of the things that we really need to talk about, have a very real conversation about, it's not the black church per se. Okay? You got a lot of people out there representing God That ain't acting right, yeah, oh, like, I'm so sick of Pimps in the pulpit. And I said, what I said? Said, what I said, I know a pimp. When I see one man, there's that. But then, you know, we decide to talk about the sins we want to talk about, and then others, we just let them go, right? And at the end of the day, I believe, and I'm not a preacher, right? God is the judge. He gave us a rule book, and we supposed to follow it and stuff like that, but I feel like we should all be trying and not judging.

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That's the that's the second part, trying and not judging. You ain't trying.

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I'm doing me. That's not for you to decide. Man, like, that's the problem, you know, sidebar, that's one of the reasons why I was cool with Reed. Imma keep it a Bucha, like, probably read was a little bit bigger than I would normally, like, I like, a little bit of a smaller church, little more intimate feeling. But I did a lot of church shopping when I moved to this area. And I tell everybody, churches are like shoes. They're not for everybody. Right exactly? You

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gotta find the right fit.

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You gotta find the right fit. It got so bad. Revere, now I would schedule, I'm not lying like three churches on a Sunday, just in case, because I already knew I was leaving. I already knew. Because if y'all talking crazy, I'm out. Finger up. God bless y'all. Okay, this one got an 11 o'clock service. Okay? Imma hit day 11 o'clock service and see what they can do a little better. I remember I had this one older Saint grab my arm as I was finger up. She told me, stop running from the Lord. I said, Ma'am, I am not running from the Lord. Running from you. That's

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good. That's good.

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Y'all crazy over here. Then I went to this other church. Oh, thank God, it was COVID and I have my mask on. Now look, people started shouting, that's normal. I'm used to that black church, right? People started running around the church, also normal. I am used to that. Amen. This lady in a motorized wheelchair kicked that joint into fifth gear and started zooming around the front.

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All of a sudden, you on a road race to go.

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I got to go. I gotta go. So we get to the car, I'm glad I had a mask on, because you can only see my eyes, and I know they

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were big.

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My child, who was probably 12 at the time, as soon as we get to the car, says, teachers, I just busted and

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wait to get to the car so I can take off this mask and really laugh.

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So anyway, I mean, we can have a conversation, and I think it would be an interesting conversation, because you have a lot of people who are in my age range who are looking at the relevance of the church going forward, and especially if you are the unchurched, right? There's a whole generation of kids who they didn't grow up in church. I did, right? But if you're unchurched, a lot of things we do is strange. We do it out of normal. Are strange. So, you know, trying to be open to a different perspective of, okay, you know, if they're not used to, because we are now praying the doors are closed and I can't come in right now, or think about

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that, right? Or it's boring, so I want to light up a cigarette

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that part,

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that part. I mean, that's happened to some people, some people who might be pastors that you know, Pastor Mark. He's when he says, I didn't grow up in church. His mother took him out of church in the third grade. He was in Catholic Church, Catholic school. Oh,

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pray, pay on your way. That's it. Pray, pay on your way. Shout out to the Catholics listening. So, I mean, that has this place. I'm just that's what I'm talking about, you know, and we have got to be open to people who have different perspectives and not so offended just because things are different, like yo stop saying yoga is from the devil Y'all bugging

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or meditation is from the devil yard, day and night

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now, bugging like anything they don't understand. And you know, the they church folks is wrong, is demonic, and that's not so can we leave the judging to God? I think he's good at that.

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He'll handle it

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in his own time,

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he's the only one who can.

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But, you know what, I but on the flip side of that, I am so grateful for the church in my life, because that has been another source of community. And, you know, and especially the AME Church, you know, I've gone, I've left the AME Church and came back because I was mad when Trayvon got shot, and nobody in the white Evangelical Church was talking about Trayvon. I was pissed that Sunday. Yep, we didn't even pray for the family. Y'all really nothing. They even mentioned it. I was pissed. I was big mad. We had Trayvon and what was the little boy's name that happened in Ohio around the same time. Oh, what's his name? Oh, the young boy who was playing with the company, playing in the park with the gun in Ohio. I can't think of it, something like that. I can't think of it. But anyway, those two things happen relatively close to each other. Nothing. I was like, I'm done.

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I gotta get back to get back to black. Yeah, where's

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black folks at? You know what? We just gonna be segregated on Sunday morning because I just, I can't. Oh, yeah, wait. And then there was the casual racism with the white folks at coffee hour that I was only accustomed to at, you know, work functions, but having to be assaulted by casual racism on a Sunday was not okay with me?

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No, no, I like that. Casual racism.

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Y'all try to be friendly, but you just just out here racist? I had a lady say to me, not that these two things are related at all. I would never tell people that I was a trained opera singer, because I didn't want to hear them say anything to me about spirituals. That was number one, but number two, don't ask me to sing. I don't scratch my head unless it's itching, and I don't dance unless there's music. No, okay, ma'am, I'm trying not to cuss on this pod. We gonna move past this. So she said to me, you don't like spiritual They're wonderful. Like, yeah, because they don't really remind me of really good times. But you know, they have their place. And she goes, like, what? And I'm like, Middle Passage, slavery. What are we talking about here? And she goes, Oh, you know, that's kind of like abortion. No, ma'am. It's not like, Oh, my. To talk to you about this over my Danish. That's right, have a good day. Just leave me alone. Yeah? So anyway, the idea of church being part of the community is hugely important. You know, one of the conversations I have frequently with a cousin of mine is I understand what my grandparents drank on the weekends. Yeah,

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nothing to drink having come from church. Well, I mean,

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imagine working in a time before there were laws, yeah, for you know, you know that stop people from just arbitrarily firing you. And in the day of EEOC, they still do it. They're just a little bit more creative with it, right? So like, imagine dealing with, as my grandfather would say, uncle Charlie all day, or mister Charlie all day. Like that's a lot, and not having any laws to protect you,

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nothing, nothing you had to self medicate to make it back on Monday again,

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you know what? That's the thing that concerns me. Living in Maryland, right? I don't smoke weed. I'm not a judgmental person, but, you know, it's legal here, and I hate that. Everywhere I go, it smells like we I'm like, Okay, y'all. I'm not a judgmental person. I'm really not that's what you want to do, do you? But I am deeply concerned with, why do you feel like you need to smoke weed to go to the grocery store?

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Let me tell you, we have stopped going to a particular Walgreens because it's right next to a cannabis shop and it's so packed. Pastor's like, I don't want to park that. Imma get a contact high, just getting out of the car. It's like,

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I am deeply concerned. It's not about smoking weed. Y'all. It is like, why do you need to get away that's significantly and that often?

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Yeah, yeah. Why do you need to not feel like you're totally in touch with reality? That's self medicating. To

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me, gotta call a thing a thing. It's self medicating. It is it is you gotta call a thing a thing. And you know, to bring it full circle, get your good job, make your paper. But hard is hard. Okay, it's hard being in corporate and dealing with the things you have to deal with. But it's also hard

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being broke. Harder being broke, you get to

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pick your heart, right? So yeah, Reverend Mia, we definitely gotta have you back. This has been an amazing

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he can do this again, inviting me. I

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was so psyched when you said you would come. You don't even understand I'm typing the email. I'm like, I don't even think she knows who I am, but I'm going to send her a picture, maybe she'll remember my

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Oh, that face, of course. Thank you.

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Thank you for blessing our audience with amazing wisdom and knowledge. And we are, I am forever changed. So thank you so much for being so open and validating what so many people feel with imposter syndrome and trying to navigate. Thank you for your transparency and so tell people how they can reach you. Best way

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to reach me is just to send an email to info at Reed temple.org, info, INFO, at Reed temple.org and just address it to Reverend man.

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Alright, that's read, r, e, i, d, y'all, thank you.

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Thank you.

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Alright. Thank you for listening. I love you when I mean it. Pigs,

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take care. Bye.

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Wasn't that a great interview? Hold up before you grab your hat and head out, make sure you make your way to facebook and join the bail yourself out pod Facebook group. That's where you'll find your virtual coworkers luxuriating and chatting. Thank you so much for listening, and if you enjoy the show, please leave a review. That's how we keep the lights on. If you're on social media, follow your girl, Kandice, with a K Whitaker. And you know what I'd love to hear from you with that I love you, and I mean it, because there are people who hate in the world for no reason. I choose to love for no reason. I believe, as the great Martin Luther King Jr, said, hate is too great a burden to bear. So I choose to love peace. Y'all. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai